no, why? it sits proudly in the middle of the last Updates list, with six secondingsOriginally Posted by Odetta
you scared me, though... it's one of my worst nightmares nowadays... I wake up, screaming, having dreamt that I made a stupid mistake somewhere and not will have to look through all the pages of this thread to retrieve it...
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe my aged eyes aren't awake yet this morning! Sorry!
I would never make bears do this! I would have found it myself!
No bad dreams, dear Captain! I'm your 'number one fan' [creeper]
Buddy, you think you look strong? You’re wearing a cape.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Really? I only read one thing (mostly) by Spillane, DEAD STREET, but it struck me as elementary-- it was a good story, but the writing was lacking something. I don't know; just curious as to why you believe its deserving of the top 100.nominate
Also, I second AND THEN THERE WERE NONE.
YES REALLY Mister Spillane has sold more then 225 million copies of his books. In 1980 he had 7 titles out of the top 15 best selling fiction titles & in 1995 he received the Edgar Allen Poe Grand Master Award.
Jean can we get this puppy on the list now? I think it has been 2NDed twice already.
yes, we can!! all the secondings given will be counted in
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
White Fang Jack London
Second Island of Doctor Moreau, Up the Down Staircase, Siddhartha, Grapes of Wrath
Nominated:
Die Blechtrommel - Günter Grass.
My Stephen King collection
http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...on-Stockerlone
Non-King collection
http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...rlone-Non-King
Everybody who still disagrees with including all series should probably go on and give detailed case-by-case analyses. Jean has said plainly that he can't make all of the calls on his own because he just hasn't read every book there is. It's not enough to say, "Shut up, path, just let things be." unless the way you want things to be really is the way they are right now. That is:
Novels nominated with series credentials:
Dark Tower
Da Vinci Code
Dragonriders of Pern
Dune
Foundation trilogy
Harry Potter
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Interview With The Vampire
Last of the Mohicans
Lonesome Dove
Lord of the Rings
Out of the Silent Planet
Ringworld
Silence of the Lambs
Song of Ice and Fire
Nominated novels possessing sequels:
20,000 Leagues Under The Sea
Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
Old Yeller
Shining
Nominated novels suspected of series status:
Ender's Game
Rabbit series
Series nominated, currently in suspension:
Chronicles of Narnia
Earthsea Quartet
Hunger Games
Sword of Truth
Nominations of unspecified status, made after Jean's last update:
Against the Day
And Then There Were None
Artemis Fowl (series)
Blechtrommel, Die
Casino Royale (James Bond series)
Grapes of Wrath, The
Hound of the Baskervilles, The (Sherlock Holmes)
Island of Doctor Moreau, The
Kiss Me, Deadly (Mike Hammer)
Murder on the Orient Express (Hercule Poirot)
Neverending Story, The
Pastime (Spenser)
Peau de Chagrin, La
Picture of Dorian Gray, The
Secret Garden, The
Series of Unfortunate Events, A
Siddhartha
Summer of Night
Tales of the City
Time Machine, The
Tunnel in the Sky
Up the Down Staircase
White Fang
Nominated novels that were originally serialized:
Come on, who wants to count up all of those?
What I think is that we should avoid a lot of argument over what is ineligible plus eventual argument over which book in some series deserves to ultimately represent it by loosening the standard for practical purposes here, but if you don't see it that way, then I ask again: Are there other ideas on how to be fair and accurate?
Last edited by pathoftheturtle; 08-31-2013 at 06:22 AM. Reason: clarity
Nominating The Plot Against America.
Seconding White Fang.
If you are going through hell - keep going
My position in this is simple (much unlike your outlook on the matter). If you can read ANY of the individual installments, and NEVER read any of the others and never even know or care that they exist. (ex. Last of the Mohicans) It is a stand alone novel. If you can't select an installment at random, and read it without depending on the other installments before or after for resolution than it is a series. I am not going to belabor the point further. You have done that sufficiently. To call Mysterious Island a "sequel" to 20,000 leagues is pretty nitpicky (You would not even be able to make that distinction until the last 50 pages of the 600 page book, and the connection is no more than a shared character.) JUST BECAUSE A SET OF NOVELS HAVE SOME CHARACTERS IN COMMON DOES NOT MAKE THEM A SERIES!!! If it did, we could make a case that nearly ALL Stephen King books were part of a series, as would be the same case for many authors.
Sloth Love Chunk
So are you in favor of leaving out all of the books that Jean has left out so far and including all of the books that Jean has included so far, BROWNINGS CHILDE?
BTW, I recommend the other Leatherstocking books. They're good.
For lack of a better choice, I am in favor of eliminating all multiple installment nominations. If they aren't bound in the same book, then it shouldnt be included. Otherwise one has to look at each case individually, and ultimately, the defining points of the argument are subjective. Hence, no agreement could be reached. So if it is all or nothing, then I vote no series. I still believe that The Dark Tower and Lord of the Rings are single narratives, and that eliminating them is something akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But, if we open the door to all series then the list would be full of them. One thing I will say, I have NEVER seen a multiple installment narrative on ANY Top 100 novel list, and I frequently look at them for reading suggestions. Moreover, I frequently see single installments from various series on Top 100 lists.
Just another thought, when this list is published as "thedarktower.org Top 100 novel list" don't you think that most would infer that the Dark Tower novels would make the cut....even if the series is not on the list.
Sloth Love Chunk
We'll probably get the opportunity to write an introduction, possibly change the name of the project, whatever we decide the standards and intent to be. You don't have to alter the spirit to match what you anticipate expectations will be for your presentation. It's a good point, though, that some great novels lists have included representative installments from different great series. I just wonder, if we do pick Last of the Mohicans to stand for Leatherstocking, whether it would really be so bad to name Return of the King and DT7. (It would be more work to have a whole series of "best of series" contests, but you know, The Deerslayer is really up there on same level as LotM.)
I typed a long-ish post and hit the back button and lost everything, but it was pretty similar to BC's.
I've already made my point. It didn't matter then, it won't matter now and who cares really? The powers that be should just come out and say that this is a DT forum and we can't not count the DT books. That would be more honest.
B. Childe mentions the word subjective which was actually the word I used too. The "jump in" point is very subjective. No, you can't jump in at The Drawing of the Three, but you can read The Gunslinger and just stop there. It has its own ending. See? Subjective. Take out around 100-150 pages from Wizard & Glass and you have a self-contained story. Anyone could read The Wind Through the Keyhole without any prior knowledge. The first Hunger Games book doesn't count for some reason. Its ending makes sense to me (within its context) as much as the first Harry Potter and DT books did. First Dune, Hitchiker's Guide and Ringworld books are 100% stand-alones but those stories aren't even close to being done. Heck, Ringworld just ended and Dune is still going on (it fits the criteria IMO because you can't just jump in.) Again...subjective.
It's really not that hard to pick your favourite out of a series and just go with it. Or do a separate list for series. Whatever.
I'd like to nominate The Drawing of the Three.
Seconded.
I would nominate Wizards and Glass.
They will all be nominated now. haha
Sloth Love Chunk
How much of the other leatherstocking books are in French? I loved LotM, but the French parts were very tiresome to me, as they were extended pieces and I couldnt find a source that translated those parts of the book. So, I spent alot of time typing those parts into an online translator. Loved the book but some chapters were hard to get through because of that. And they were important parts, so they couldnt be skimmed.
Sloth Love Chunk
You lost me here. More honest than what? I've been trying to be as consistent (and honest) as I can. I gave a definition of a novel that seems to work and hasn't been refuted yet. I am trying to keep to it.
That said, the separate volumes of TDT cannot be nominated. We've nominated the whole book, and it has perfectly good chances to be on the list.
The Gunslinger controversy is the only that seems real to me at the moment. I think The Gunslinger can, at least historically, be considered a separate novel. I don't see much sense in giving it a separate slot, because it is already in anyway.
The Wind, on the other hand, is not one of the volumes of the book, and can by all means be entered separately.
Path: sequels, prequels, mid-quels, and all other secondthoughtquels are all separate novels and can be nominated as such. So can any separate novel of a series that is not a multi-volume novel. The only problem is what we do or don't consider multi-volume novels.
I suggest a solution:
In case of such a controversy, should ANY TWO of the participants argue that a book in question is a multi-volume novel rather than a series of separate novels, this book will be accepted as a novel. I really hope we'll be honest and conscientous in our estimations.
Guys, really, I've been thinking about it for weeks, and the way I am offering seems to lead to less controversy, and do justice to more great books, than all others I've considered. (for example, what Browning's has offered would exclude War and Peace, etc., and generally put the question of physical manageability before the one of artistic integrity)
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, War and Peace is a novel, so I don't know what that problem there is. Likewise, while often erroneously though of as a trilogy, Lord of the Rings is also a novel. I agree that The Dark Tower and Harry Potter can be considered for this list, as they're a true series (one ongoing story broken up into several standalone books). The James Bond novels, for instance, is a series of totally separate novels.
Another option would be to take out the series so that you would only nominate individual books, whether they stand on their own or not. For example, I could nominate Harry Potter Half Blood Prince rather than the whole series of Harry Potter books. I could nominate A Storm of Swords in ASOIAF rather than the whole series, simply because I enjoyed THAT book the most of all of them.
We could always do another list consisting of books in series.
Not trying to rock the boat, just saying it is an option available to us.
Buddy, you think you look strong? You’re wearing a cape.
You lost me here. More honest than what? I've been trying to be as consistent (and honest) as I can. I gave a definition of a novel that seems to work and hasn't been refuted yet. I am trying to keep to it.
That said, the separate volumes of TDT cannot be nominated. We've nominated the whole book, and it has perfectly good chances to be on the list.
The Gunslinger controversy is the only that seems real to me at the moment. I think The Gunslinger can, at least historically, be considered a separate novel. I don't see much sense in giving it a separate slot, because it is already in anyway.
The Wind, on the other hand, is not one of the volumes of the book, and can by all means be entered separately.
Path: sequels, prequels, mid-quels, and all other secondthoughtquels are all separate novels and can be nominated as such. So can any separate novel of a series that is not a multi-volume novel. The only problem is what we do or don't consider multi-volume novels.
I suggest a solution:
In case of such a controversy, should ANY TWO of the participants argue that a book in question is a multi-volume novel rather than a series of separate novels, this book will be accepted as a novel. I really hope we'll be honest and conscientous in our estimations.
Guys, really, I've been thinking about it for weeks, and the way I am offering seems to lead to less controversy, and do justice to more great books, than all others I've considered. (for example, what Browning's has offered would exclude War and Peace, etc., and generally put the question of physical manageability before the one of artistic integrity)IMHO, the fact that this list will be published places a certain "responsibility" on us as a community to be as fair and unbias as possible. I think that, Jean is and has done some great work here and has graciously offered to do more. In respect of him I say we follow his guidelines. Anything along the lines suggested would result in chaos. IMHO Not to say that debate is not a worthy vehicle for change, it is. Just my "two cents".
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
My Collection: https://www.thedarktower.org/palaver...ion-Merlin1958
The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
You can't demand respect just because you paid for it. Truth is not for sale. The argument "There will be chaos if we don't do things my way." is the very reason that there IS so much chaos in the world today -- the people making it are usually no wiser than the ones who they put down.
What's the difference between continual stories and continuous stories? Very little, really. But if you think it's in order, go ahead. I'll believe it when I see it.
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