He himself picked it up.
It was "a present" or something from Gan.
He just found it over there.
Something else.
I have no idea.
You may be right, jude. But his personal affinity is not part of the story, imo.Originally Posted by obscurejude
I still think that the desert loop thing has more to do with King's own personal affinity for the opening lines than it does with any internal logic from the narrative itself. King would never compromise the internal logic for his own ego
Spoiler:
That's my motto.
Stubbornness is Coolness.
Same here. If the horn was a gift from Gan, the whole story would become awfully average so it just doesn't work for me either. I don't think that Roland picked the horn, though. I think of each story as a whole and in my opinion (correct me if it doesn't make sense) Roland started the story with the horn. At the end of the story we've all read, Roland picked up the horn alright, but I think it must have dropped when he drank some water or something. It was always there is what I mean.Oh, you have no idea how happy I was to see this line. I started to think that I am the only weirdo again.
Thank you.
Horn as a gift from Gan... no way for me.
For me it's only one acceptable way of the Horn. That Roland himself picked it up. There is only one question left in my mind; how could he do it if he starts his loop from the desert?
So to make it short: we've read a long story in which Roland didn't have the horn because he didn't pick it up at Jericho Hill and we start a whole new story in which Roland picked the horn at Jericho Hill and kept it with him until it fell in the desert and he picked it up again. Is it understandable?
Ahhh, I see what you are saying, I don't agree with it ("Stubborness is Coolness") But at least I see where you are coming from although, by logic we do in fact know that he starts at least 2 loops in the desert 19 & 20.Basically, what we know from the last line being the same as the first line is that the next loop begins in the desert. That's all we really know for a fact. Now I concede that it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that this is the starting point for every loop, but I don't know that's it's evidence that this is the case. In short, I think it's open to speculation because the only loop we really know about is the one we read about and we know where the next one starts, but that's all we know. It allows speculation to rule the day (which I think is a strong point of the series, there is no "right" answer).
I would have to agree with your own statement that you are looking at it very "literally" but, hey to each his own and God Bless. We will have to respectfully agree to disagree but, thanks for the response!
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The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
Think you are pretty close. I prefer to think of it as a "gift from Gan" for lack of a better succinct phrase to describe the action. To me it sorta falls under the "Time Travel scenario" again for lack of a better way to say it. I think if any of you saw the movie "Butterfly Effect" and the way they cinematically handled the changes to timelines that that may come closet to what I believe the whole "Gift from Gan" thing represents. He begins each loop in the desert but the memories and therefore I suppose, the events are sort of rushed in as "implants"? or whatever you want to call them. The gist being that Roland and his reality are adjusted according to the flap of the butterflies wings (in this instances the receipt of the horn). Probably explained this very badly but hopefully you all get the idea and maybe even a few share it!! lol lolSame here. If the horn was a gift from Gan, the whole story would become awfully average so it just doesn't work for me either. I don't think that Roland picked the horn, though. I think of each story as a whole and in my opinion (correct me if it doesn't make sense) Roland started the story with the horn. At the end of the story we've all read, Roland picked up the horn alright, but I think it must have dropped when he drank some water or something. It was always there is what I mean.Oh, you have no idea how happy I was to see this line. I started to think that I am the only weirdo again.
Thank you.
Horn as a gift from Gan... no way for me.
For me it's only one acceptable way of the Horn. That Roland himself picked it up. There is only one question left in my mind; how could he do it if he starts his loop from the desert?
So to make it short: we've read a long story in which Roland didn't have the horn because he didn't pick it up at Jericho Hill and we start a whole new story in which Roland picked the horn at Jericho Hill and kept it with him until it fell in the desert and he picked it up again. Is it understandable?
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
My Collection: https://www.thedarktower.org/palaver...ion-Merlin1958
The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
You're welcome. Like I said, I'm not necessarily even tied to that interpretation being 'correct' but then again, I'm not tied to any interpretation being correct. I think they all work.
Ahhh, I see what you are saying, I don't agree with it ("Stubborness is Coolness") But at least I see where you are coming from although, by logic we do in fact know that he starts at least 2 loops in the desert 19 & 20.
I would have to agree with your own statement that you are looking at it very "literally" but, hey to each his own and God Bless. We will have to respectfully agree to disagree but, thanks for the response!
I would say that I tend not to agree with the theory that the loop we saw is #19. I don't think all the 19's had anything to do with how many times Roland had done this before, instead I think it was solely to point the tet at the date of King's accident. There are some times the number comes up that wouldn't make sense if the number of the loop is always used in that situation. For instance, the number of steps between landings in the Tower. On the first loop, was there really only one step between landings? That'd have been one annoying spiral staircase. Same goes for the number of letters in names. Again though, it is still possible for it to be the 19th loop. Nothing is specifically discounted.
One step between each landing...
Yeah, that would be pretty lame.
And I suppose that would also mean the tet would meet people with 1 letter in their name.
"Hile Roland!" said the old man, "I am G of the Calla."
"Oh man," said Eddie. "His name is G. That's like, one letter man! That number is everywhere."
"Everything is just so 1"
OK, I'll stop now.
Which leads us to think that Pythagorus and Descartes - to name just two that first come to mind - were reincarnations of Roland."Everything is just so 1"
OK, I'll stop now.
(OK, I'll stop now, too)
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow. Blows toOne step between each landing...
Yeah, that would be pretty lame.any notion I had of the loops being numbered. You just blew my mind. Dunno why I never thought of the first loop and what crap-fest that would have been.
"Hey Roland, I just counted my dick and guess how many there are... ONE! Does it mean something?" So it's probably "19" this and "19" that all the way through every loop, huh?
BTW, mods: What does a guy have to do to get his beloved :poop: emoticon? That was my favorite one from the .net days. Sometimes I would just post that on a thread. You know how hard it was to find out there on the interweb?
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Real Coffee,
From the Hills Of Colombia?
The Duncan Hills awake you
from a thousand deaths.
A cup of blackened blood.
(Die, Die)
You're dying for a cup.
Well, whether anyone is saying outright that we do, or not, I think that the question is implicitly at issue in this thread.Free will is particularly important in Western culture, but I don't think it is solely a Christian idea: certainly a number of humanist thinkers have rejected the Christian faith partly because they don't feel that it respects the free will concept as earnestly as it claims to.
If it's true that TDT puts forward "Towericism/Ganicism," then I think it'd be interesting to examine the consistency/validity of that, and to test the truth of its various assertions.So, how do you feel about that?
However, if we believe in "nexuses" like the Dark Tower then it may be that not EVERY choice is made in its own world. I mean, isn't that the point of what TMIB says at the end of The Gunslinger? "Does God see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a hydrogen atom? And if so, what must the nature of such a God be?"
The muliverse you describe is pure chaos. Whatever "can" happen does happen. Where, then, are justice and compassion?Ideally, rewards do go to those that deserve them, but you must have good faith in our educational and employment systems if you're quite confident that it is positive whenever anyone advances. If Gan decided that giving the horn is what Roland's degree of evolution had earned, this begs questions about Gan's judgement.
"The Dark Tower is existance." he says. Nancy Deepneau assumes that he should care about the worlds. But why? What qualities do these worlds have that necessarily makes them worthwhile? Is it automatically better to have ANY world than no world? I think that Roland cares about good worlds and would gladly protect a good cosmos, if one exists, or work to make a good cosmos if the one that he lives in is not really good.
That's the bottom line, IMHO, of these debates about the Tower and the Horn.
True Free will isn't solely a christian idea but the relation I was using is that you have the Free Will to choose to believe or not, to reject the apple, or eat it. both are possible, the end results are different.Free will is particularly important in Western culture, but I don't think it is solely a Christian idea: certainly a number of humanist thinkers have rejected the Christian faith partly because they don't feel that it respects the free will concept as earnestly as it claims to.
If it's true that TDT puts forward "Towericism/Ganicism," then I think it'd be interesting to examine the consistency/validity of that, and to test the truth of its various assertions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumbler19 View Post
...Regarding the horn signifying a loss of free will, I don't think it really it signifies a loss exactly... more like a hint of how much free will Roland has always had. I think a lot of things that happen throughout the series, roland does have the power to choose, the beginning and ends and other certain key points will always happen and Roland has no free will over those matters.
So, how do you feel about that?
My purpose for saying Towericism/Ganicism was merely to strengthen my point that It is a completely different Realm a separation needs to be noted, and certain things like Free will don't necessarily exist, just because they do in our world.
In regards to Roland not having free will pertaining to those "key points" I honestly don't have a problem with it... I think that some event, will lead to some event, will lead to some event, which will lead to the saving of the beam, and in turn the tower. And maybe that one first "Domino" was toppled by Gan, something small, like just happening to meet a certain billy bumbler, or a feather floats and tickles Roland's nose making him see something important.
I think Roland loses a lot of his character if there is a real possibility of him just deciding to call it quits on his own accord. There is a sense of duty, weather or not he is conscious of it or not.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but who says it had to be a gift from Gan/Dark Tower?
Assuming we just met up with Roland at the desert and all of his past had already happened, couldn't he have just picked it up on his own accord? The thought crossed his mind the time we read didn't it?
This probably opens up a lot more plot holes then it's worth.
I think that since his past, prior to the desert, is we assume fixed and therefore outside the loop, that some form of "Divine" or "Supernatural" intervention is required for him to obtain the Horn. I think its safe to assume that his past prior to "The Man in Black......." is fixed like in keystone earth and not repeated or amendable other than by someone or something above and beyond stepping in to make an exception.I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but who says it had to be a gift from Gan/Dark Tower?
Assuming we just met up with Roland at the desert and all of his past had already happened, couldn't he have just picked it up on his own accord? The thought crossed his mind the time we read didn't it?
This probably opens up a lot more plot holes then it's worth.
On another note, you all make an excellent point with regard to the number of loops lol lol. Can't believe I missed that rather obvious observation. In retrospect, "19" must have more to do with SK's accident date, When he began writing the epic or, my personal favorite, 1918 the last time (before recent regrettable events) that the Red Sox had one the World Series. Talk about "Ka" King finishes the DT series and the Sox win the Series, ending 86 years of sweet & deserving N.E. misery!!!!! lol lol (What can I say, I'm a died in the wool Yankee fan!!!!) lol lol lol
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
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The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
But is the past really fixed? Roland himself says that "even the past is in motion" leading me to believe that it's not necessarily fixed at all.
True, but I think it is for Roland at least in regard to the loop. SK does contradict himself a few times (I am currently re-reading it and am up to DT7) so I was kinda going by the major plot points i.e. the fact that when he enters the Tower room he ends up back in the desert and not Mejis or otherwise. Still, its just my interpetation.
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
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The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
THe past is never written for Roland. Each time he reaches the tower I believe he has a chance to rewrite the past as though it is the future. Sort of like the Back to the Future 2 notion that the future is not set in stone. In Roland's case the past is fluid, not fixed because he does not realize it but he has the ability to rewrite his history.
On free will: I tend to think that in the theology of Towerism/Ganism as it's been called here does not necessarily deny the existence of free will. It at least acknowledges it. Ganism assumes that Fee Will is an illusion held by the non-believer. So even as RF believes he is in control of his destiny and Ka, the truth is he is destined to be unceremoniously killed. It is his Ka to be a non-believer and to make a fatal error.
Do You Folks Like Coffee?
Real Coffee,
From the Hills Of Colombia?
The Duncan Hills awake you
from a thousand deaths.
A cup of blackened blood.
(Die, Die)
You're dying for a cup.
On free will: I tend to think that in the theology of Towerism/Ganism as it's been called here does not necessarily deny the existence of free will. It at least acknowledges it. Ganism assumes that Fee Will is an illusion held by the non-believer. So even as RF believes he is in control of his destiny and Ka, the truth is he is destined to be unceremoniously killed. It is his Ka to be a non-believer and to make a fatal error.
I have to go back to a thought I had earlier. I think Roland's "free will" is tied to humanity's choices. Roland, I believe, is representative of humanity throughout the multiverse. His choice are determined by the choices mankind makes and not his own individual ones. At least from the point in the desert through the room in the tower. I believe that the rest of the ka-tet carry similar responsibilty in influencing Roland's ultimate choices representing larger overall tendencies in mankind (sort of like, but not exactly, how the political parties represent U.S. Citizens in government).
Does that hold any water?
Of course, I could be out on a limb somewhere too!!! lol lol lol
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
My Collection: https://www.thedarktower.org/palaver...ion-Merlin1958
The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
Sorry Merlin but you lost me. Maybe because I believe some arguments both for and against free will in the Rolandverse. My understanding of Ka is becoming paradoxical. This whole stream of thought confounds me.
Do You Folks Like Coffee?
Real Coffee,
From the Hills Of Colombia?
The Duncan Hills awake you
from a thousand deaths.
A cup of blackened blood.
(Die, Die)
You're dying for a cup.
This whole Free Will conversation can easily be transferred to the actual christian religion, maybe SK meant for it to be a sort of point to be made about Christianity, who knows... maybe i think about this because it is one of the major points about christianity that bothers me...
We supposedly have free will... to believe or not to believe, to do what we want etc. etc. but... at the same time it is said that God has a plan for us... and God exists out of time... knowing what we have done and will do forever... therefore... is that really free will? if everything is planned for us... then how can we really make a choice
or
Matrix: If Neo was carrying the code in him to be the one Did HE really choose the red pill? or did the code urge/push/make him take the red pill? Like the Merovingian says "Choice? there is no choice, just Cause, and Effect"
Maybe it is just a theme that we've discovered that SK tied into this story like many other stories that have been written (such as the matrix). The themes purpose is merely for the audience to question the point that it portrays.
And i dunno if the "free will of humanity" thing really holds water, imo at least, because if it is humanity's free will causing Roland to do these things, then Roland himself has no free will, which brings us back to square one XD.
Not really when you consider that Roland's personal life ended with "the Man in Black..........." the point at which he became the central figure in the loop that (IMO) represents humanities choices (evolution/de-evolution). Remember Sk tells us throughout the story that Rolands is a special figure chosen by Gan (God). The last of the line of Eld and therefore "special" much as, say Jesus is to religeon?
My theory therefore is that Roland (and to an extent the Tet) cease to exhibit there own personal free will but represent the collective free will choices of Mankind. Thereby either saving or destroying mankind. Its like the whole religeon thing you mentioned earlier. God and satan can not make the choices for man but, can "arrange" the circumstances for a choice to be made for right or wrong, good or evil. In religeon that is the ongoing struggle, I think that SK utilized that thread in the story of Roland and he and the ka-tet are symbols for mankinds choices throughout the multi-verse.
Just one Crack-pot's theory of course. But, it feels kinda right to me! lol lol
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
My Collection: https://www.thedarktower.org/palaver...ion-Merlin1958
The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
Roland did not pick up the horn at the top of the tower or in the desert. It states he touched the horn at his hip and remembers picking it up on jerico hill. Also I see to remember that when he was remembering the battle further back in the series he was pulled away from the battle by some force BEFORE he could pick up the horn which he WAS going to do.
I guess it depends on how you interpret the metafictional aspects. In all seriousness, I think it is a big part of the story and one that I don't care for as you all know. Having the ves ka causes all sorts of problems with the internal logic of the story and this is another example in my opinion.You may be right, jude. But his personal affinity is not part of the story, imo.I still think that the desert loop thing has more to do with King's own personal affinity for the opening lines than it does with any internal logic from the narrative itself. King would never compromise the internal logic for his own ego
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