2. I don't think Allie reminds him of Susan. For starters SK takes pains to describe both specimens of flesh. Allie's skin is scarred and she has sagging breasts. Secondly, Sheb brings back the memory of Susan when he barges into Allie's bedroom; not Allie And upon this memory Roland refuses to make love to Allie. Logic follows that memories of Susan = mood killers. If Allie reminded him of Susan I doubt Roland would be in the mood on that first night.
I don't think Sheb conjured those memories in the original version. There's barely mention of Susan in the original Gunslinger and so Roland's reasons for staying seem to have little to do with her. I don't think the 18 year old SK had much of Mejis in his mind at that point, but I could be wrong.
2. I don't think Allie reminds him of Susan. For starters SK takes pains to describe both specimens of flesh. Allie's skin is scarred and she has sagging breasts. Secondly, Sheb brings back the memory of Susan when he barges into Allie's bedroom; not Allie And upon this memory Roland refuses to make love to Allie. Logic follows that memories of Susan = mood killers. If Allie reminded him of Susan I doubt Roland would be in the mood on that first night.
I don't think Sheb conjured those memories in the original version. There's barely mention of Susan in the original Gunslinger and so Roland's reasons for staying seem to have little to do with her. I don't think the 18 year old SK had much of Mejis in his mind at that point, but I could be wrong.
I don't think you are, Ryan. I actually think that the original works better without all the shoe-horned references to the later books.
DT 7 BIG BIG
I think it fits well with the ending of DT 7 and the disorientation of looping back. I believe it takes Roland a little while to come fully back into himself when he loops; thus, even powerful memories like those of the whiny girl from Mejis take a a bit to settle back into accessibility in his head.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
he's supposed to be on the side of the white. he's supposed to be searching for the tower. he's going to have to save the beams. and he's staying in the town, knowing there's a trap. and he rapes this woman with his gun.
the bottom line is he should be better than that. he's a gunslinger. he's not a monster, or at least he shouldn't be. he's not some thug, or at least he shouldn't be. he's an instrument of the white.
I think this hits the nail on the head as far as Tull is concerned, except I think it does so by illustrating what a gunslinger IS, not what he shouldn't be.
Sure, Roland sensed a trap there, but I don't recall any forshadowing of the fact that the trap would require him to kill the whole town. I got the feeling that at that stage, Roland was basically taking things head on, sort of blindly following wherever his path to the Tower led him. If there is a mountain in his way, he goes directly over it, a desert, he goes directly through it. Same thing with a trap. He just plods straight through.
Tull, as much as any other part of the DT world, had "moved on," to the point where the people were as bad as animals with no morals, no love, no happiness in that town whatsoever. The town as a whole was like a sick and dying animal, and not even one individual in that town had a quality good enough to redeem it. When The Town turns on him, Roland kills The Town like a rabid dog.
Spoiler:
or like a certain over the hill 70 foot tall cybernetic bear
Yes, in killing The Town, he killed a lot of individuals, and that obviously caused Roland some considerable pain down the road. I guess I got the feeling that we were being let in on the fact that gunslingers in general, and Roland especially, lived a life where they dealt with all the mud, blood, and depravity in the world, and had to live with the personal, inner demons that went with it as part of their service to the white.
And speaking of demons, didn't anyone else get the idea that Sylvia Pittson was possessed by one? The fact that SK does his best to describe her as rather unattractive, yet Roland is nearly overcome with lust for her when they meet, reminds me of the incubbus and sucubbus demons that he encounters later on. I saw what he did with his gun less as a case of "rape" and more like something along the lines of a known remedy for her condition.
I didn't find Pittson's description as unattractive myself She's a big lady, though, and that's not the physical type that the media portrays as attractive, but in the end I guess it's a question of taste. I certainly understood Roland's reaction although it did seem a bit extreme. A demon might have had something to do with that, although I think her demon was mainly the figurative sense in her own mind, not helped by the Man in Black. I think she had a kind of infectious, in the end unhealthy* charisma which added to her other, um, assets. Possibly aided with some bewitchment, in the very literal sense of the word a deposit (oo-er) left by old Walt (that sly dog).
I disagree that none of the town members had any redeeming qualities though. Allie certainly had a sense of empathy. And then there was the little boy who chose not to be rude to the Gunslinger when he made enquiries, a small thing but there nonetheless.
They were all weak though and easily led. So maybe that amounts to the same thing in the end. What's the good of having inner goodness if you don't bring it out?
Wizard and Glass spoiler:
Spoiler:
Like the folk at Hambry I guess, at least near the end. I never really saw that echo before!
*Not in the physical sense. She certainly seemed very healthy in that way.
HELLO EVERY ONE MY NAME IS PETE58, I AM A VERY BIG STEPHEN KING FAN. MY FAVORITE BOOK IS THE FIRST DARK TOWER NOVEL: THE GUNSLINGER. I RECENTLY CREATED A 3-D RECREATION OF THE TOWN OF TULL FOR THE VIDEO GAME UNREAL TOURNAMENT 2004. UNFORTUNATELY WITH OUT THE GAME YOU CANT PLAY THE MAP BUT IF YOU WANT TO SEE A FEW PICTURES OF MY MAP OR YOU WANT TO DOWNLOAD FOR UT04 HERE IS THE SITE...
THANK YOU
Margaret Emmie Mackey Catoe, you are, have been, and always will be my soulmate, and I love you.
Con todo mi corazon, por todo de mis dias. And I always will, in this life and into the next.
We're always glad to have big SK fans to talk with: I hope that you'll be around the site doing more than just this, homer. (Hm...all lowercase in the username. Who'd've thought?)
Did anyone else notice this? Remember that baby that was mentioned, I believe it was the daughter of the stable-manager? The one that was "drooling happily in the dirt"?
...
Well, what happened to it? From what I gather from the text, the baby is never mentioned again (after the battle), and it's certainly not one of the townsfolk attacking Roland.....So did Roland really leave a little baby behind to starve to death in a newly-depopulated desert town? Or is there something in the text even implying anything to the contrary? Because I don't know if I can handle the thought of Roland killing an innocent baby.
On the other hand, the book never really mentioned the babe's mother, so I guess she might've been napping when Roland was laying waste to the town, leaving a mother for the child. Then again, the mother might have been one of the stable-manager's daughters...
Sorry if this was brought up earlier in this thread, but I didn't see any mention of it, and this has always bugged me about Gunslinger.
Because I don't know if I can handle the thought of Roland killing an innocent baby.
I am afraid that is the very point of the whole story. Is there anything he can do to atone for this in the eyes of God, Gan, and you; or is any kind of atonement possible at all.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is just one of the reasons that I did not like Roland until about halfway through the second book. As for atonement, I don't know whether atonement is possible, but forgeting is, and that is how I learned to like Roland.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, I mean Roland is still my favorite hero (anti-hero?) of all King's books and one of my favorites of all time otherwise, and his sins are what makes him so, but it's still hard every time I read Gunslinger. But that's what makes every book after that so good, especially in WOC, when I feel like he really starts to change and care about others. I do believe in atonement, and forgiveness, and I believe he can be saved, but it's still hard to think back on the dark parts.
Because I don't know if I can handle the thought of Roland killing an innocent baby.
I am afraid that is the very point of the whole story. Is there anything he can do to atone for this in the eyes of God, Gan, and you; or is any kind of atonement possible at all.
Ahhh, but saving the Tower may just be atonement enough.
It may - arguably - but I am sure no action is atonement enough. God (whatever He is called in the story) wants him to change; I also think Roland made very important steps in the right direction, starting straight away from page 1 of TDotT. In my eyes, ursine as they may be, he is completely redeemed by repentance and both actions and feelings described in further volumes (saving the Tower or no saving the Tower... this appears secondary) ... but -
DT7
higher authorities might think otherwise, given what happened in the end
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When I read the scene with Roland and Silvia, I never thought of rape at all. As for the the battle of Tull, even if he knew it was a setup, if he would have left early doesn't mean he wasn't going to kill in Tull. Silvia was there and she controlled the folks to kill Roland so he killed them all. I have had no qualms about it and thought he was really badass.
This was being discussed in another thread as well (his BA-ness and so forth). I feel like the Tull massacre is one of the best action scences in the whole series. He kills men,women, and children without remorse. It is cold but it serves the purpose of allowing him to still pursue the tower (i.e he was defending himself). Also, it's not like he took enjoyment out of committing these acts. King talks of how his hands do their own work and how Roland robotically performs his little reload trick.
Also, DT7
Spoiler:
Since he is going to re-do/live this episode a number of times, is it not fair to think that maybe he will have the sense to get out of town before they bear down on him OR the compassion to find a way to make it out of Tull alive without laying waste to the entire city?
"If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you will never change the outcome" -Michael Jordan
The baby was killed, I suppose. The text explains he left the town without one living soul (or something to that tune). Road Virus, the Tull massacre was a flashback, a story Roland told Brown.
Spoiler:
It happened before the loop. Though, I suppose, given the loop at the end of DT7 says Roland has his horn (which he lost waaaay before the loop begins), maybe he gets second chances with Tull as well...
If he has something from a battle long before his massacre in Tull, I think it is safe to assume that almost anything meaningful in his life has a chance to be altered in coming loops.
"If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you will never change the outcome" -Michael Jordan
I think that Tull was there to show us (1) what the gunslinger was capable of, killing the whole town. And (2) what the man in black was capable of, creating that trap for Roland but not attacking Roland himself. Also, someone else mentioned it, Roland is pretty much single minded and locked in on MiB. He hung around town in order to spring the trap, trying to figure out what was going on. He was going to stay no matter what. I think we're not supposed to like Roland here, I certainly didn't after reading the book. But he does become another person really once he draws the katet and forms his group. In killing Tull, he really is a son of a bitch, and we're supposed to see what he has become in his obsessive pursuit of the MiB.
As far as the 'rape' thing with Sylvia, I never saw it like that. IMO he did that to force out the demon that was in her, that she claimed MiB left her. Notice he did it with the guns, made from Excalibur's metal. That was to kill the demon. And I'm not really sure there wasn't a child or demon in her. He says the 'no child, no prince, no angle, no demon' thing after, but I always took that as he killed whatever was in her that MiB left her. She's certainly possessed or glamoured somehow. I don't think he was raping her, he was chasing out the demon, that was his intent.
Also, later on as he's hypnotizing Jake, Roland reflects on all the bad stuff that he's done. All the murder, and rapes, and evil done in the name of the white. That's all part of what he did in Tull. Whether it's wrong or right, that's the place he was in mentally in Tull, and that's what he used to justify his actions to himself.