Book Dealers-eBay sellers-dt.org buyers/sellers/ to Avoid like the Corona Virus

[amd013]

If you read the add it clearly states that AGOT entitles you to buy a copy of A Knight of Seven Kingdoms. I said nothing about you being able to buy anything further in the series. Note it says a "chance " to get matching numbers. The way I understood it from reading Sub Press website was that if the owner of ADWD did not purchase this edition you could request a matching number. There was no guarantee implied. The reason I was wanting to sell the book quickly was the open order date for AKOSK was coming up June 1st and once this date passes the value of the book decreases since it will no longer be the book you need to purchase the next one. This being said. SGC1999 and I came to an agreement on price, he paid and i shipped the books. i sent an email to Bill to transfer the rights to he could purchase AKOSK. When Bill told him he could not get matching #'s he informed me he would only pay $100 less than the agreed price as he found it cheaper somewhere else, for the book or wanted a full refund. I said sorry I would not re-negotiate the price of the book. To me if sgc1999 didn't understand what this book entitled him too, he should have asked and verified it with me before purchase. I would have explained exactly what i just said above. I have invested the money into another book and don't have it to refund. I have all the PM's in my inbox if RF would like to check out the validity of what I have written. I admit the add was not as clear as it could have been, but this could have been avoided with a question from scg1999 before purchase.

The ad does not say "a chance", but says "the chance". While the difference in wording is small, the meaning is significantly different. You say that sgc1999 should have asked for verification that you meant what he thought you meant, but really that is not reasonable when the meaning seems clear. Otherwise every transaction would require an excessive amount of back and forth emails. The limitation should have been explicitly spelled out, and since it wasn't, you should honer the request for a refund or offer a reduction in price.

Just $.02 from a new guy.

[Br!an]

Note it says a "chance " to get matching numbers.

The ad does not say "a chance", but says "the chance". While the difference in wording is small, the meaning is significantly different. You say that sgc1999 should have asked for verification that you meant what he thought you meant, but really that is not reasonable when the meaning seems clear. Otherwise every transaction would require an excessive amount of back and forth emails. The limitation should have been explicitly spelled out, and since it wasn't, you should honer the request for a refund or offer a reduction in price.

Just $.02 from a new guy.

I concur.

This will give you the chance to buy A Knight of Seven Kingdoms S/L matching # if you order by May 31st, 2015.

That sentence explicitly states purchasing the book "will" give the buyer "the chance" not "a chance" or a possibility or never going to happen but "the chance" to purchase the matching number S/L of A Knight of Seven Kingdoms. It is unambiguous. There is no other interpretation than that the buyer "Will" have "the chance" to purchase the matching numbered S/L. The only condition being purchasing the book by the deadline which the buyer did.

He never had a chance to purchase the matching number S/L never mind the chance.

The easy way out is to refund his money or appropriately discount the purchase price.

ps. If you don't have the money to refund the full amount the discount option seems to me to be gold.

[Lookwhoitis]

F1, I think you are missing an important point. Kris emphasises it above. The purchaser requested a refund once it was established the deal was not what it was described to be, and you are not proceeding to refund the money. This is not what I would expect of a trader here on the site.

And I agree with this. A deal involves a "meeting of the minds" and this did not happen in this instance.

John

I also agree. And sadly, there is no Paypal safety net in place to compel the seller to make this right.

Dan

There is a Paypal safety net, It's called don't send Paypal friends and Family for merchandise purchased through the mail.

[sgc1999]

two points i cant stress enough and they have already been mentioned. Paypal gift is really only for " friends and Family", and two, don't ever deal with this member.

"A smart person learns from there mistakes, a wise person learns from others."

[Lauterer]

My 0.02$: imho there is no other way than to understand that the auction includes the rights to acquire further books same number. Absolutely clear. Very bad business!

[sgc1999]

I would like to warn other members of buying anything from greg/F1racefan i would also appreciate feedback from members of this forum and what you think about this transaction.
Recently F1racefan put an add in this forum to sell A game of thrones. Along with the book he said the purchase was to include rites to the same number of future Ice and Fire books. This is the only reason i agreed to the deal. If i could show you all the PM's leading to the sale It would be very clear that the rites to the number were part of the deal. This was a blatant lie as he does not even own Dance with Dragons and has no claim to the number. He will not allow me a refund and took advantage of the fact that i gifted the money to him as part of the deal. the offer is on the page before this one, 306.
. Here is a copy of the public conversation in this forum.
"Quote Originally Posted by F1racefan View Post
=
Quote Originally Posted by F1racefan View Post
REDUCED!!!

For Sale: GRRM SubPress Game of Thrones S/L #354/500 still in publishers shipping box. $475 + free shipping in US Paypal gift or add 3% if you don't want to do gift.

This will give you the chance to buy A Knight of Seven Kingdoms S/L matching # if you order by May 31st, 2015.

Make me a offer!! All reasonable offers considered.
SOLD

Its clear he is offering the matching number in this offer. And i complied by buying the Knight of seven kingdoms before the deadline only to get an email from bill saying that Greg does not own the rites to this number

please beware this member as he is a very dishonest person.

If you read the add it clearly states that AGOT entitles you to buy a copy of A Knight of Seven Kingdoms. I said nothing about you being able to buy anything further in the series. Note it says a "chance " to get matching numbers. The way I understood it from reading Sub Press website was that if the owner of ADWD did not purchase this edition you could request a matching number. There was no guarantee implied. The reason I was wanting to sell the book quickly was the open order date for AKOSK was coming up June 1st and once this date passes the value of the book decreases since it will no longer be the book you need to purchase the next one. This being said. SGC1999 and I came to an agreement on price, he paid and i shipped the books. i sent an email to Bill to transfer the rights to he could purchase AKOSK. When Bill told him he could not get matching #'s he informed me he would only pay $100 less than the agreed price as he found it cheaper somewhere else, for the book or wanted a full refund. I said sorry I would not re-negotiate the price of the book. To me if sgc1999 didn't understand what this book entitled him too, he should have asked and verified it with me before purchase. I would have explained exactly what i just said above. I have invested the money into another book and don't have it to refund. I have all the PM's in my inbox if RF would like to check out the validity of what I have written. I admit the add was not as clear as it could have been, but this could have been avoided with a question from scg1999 before purchase.

Why would i ask your meaning as 1st, it seemed very clear in your offer, and second you said you would inform Bill at Sub press you were going to transfer your number to me. A number you did not have rites for? I have the emails that prove this. Am i missing something?

[Merlin1958]

I am not qualified to comment on the particulars here as I only collect G.R.R.M. on behalf of my son, but Simon has been a great and honest help to me in the past in this regard purchasing multiple signed GRRM editions from him for Xmas and I have had several other King related transactions with him in the past. He is always honest in his prices and knowledge, never afraid to say "I don't know, let me check". He is also fair to a fault, IMHO When it comes to this collectible genre, I trust him implicitly. From what I have read here in the past with regards to other similar LE sales of other titles, this does not seem to ring true as a fair, honest and equitable sale, on F-1' part. IMHO

For whatever my opinion and experiences are worth to the discussion.

[Patrick]

We impose very little in the way of rules for transactions here and zero in fees. We rely on our members to behave in a way that supports and reinforces the overarching spirit of buying and selling on this site which is that of trust, honesty, and generally doing the right thing so that both parties are satisfied. This is especially true for sellers who are willing to accept checks, cash, or PayPal Gift from fellow members of this site.

In the case at hand, my impression is that the original ad heavily implied something material that wasn't true. This may have been inadvertent, but it is clear from the comments here that others, at least those who have posted so far, read the original ad the same way that I do.

Because the misrepresented issue (perhaps accidental) is material by any collector's standards, the buyer is asking for a reversal of the transaction or a discount from the prepaid price. To me, these seem like fair options. I would think that the seller and buyer could come to an agreement on the amount of the discount to be returned to the buyer.

I do not advocate PayPal Gift, although personally I use it almost exclusively on transactions I enter via this site. eBay is the site for formality, heavy fees, buyer beware mentality, and lies of omission. TheDarkTower.org is not.

[Randall Flagg]

We impose very little in the way of rules for transactions here and zero in fees. We rely on our members to behave in a way that supports and reinforces the overarching spirit of buying and selling on this site which is that of trust, honesty, and generally doing the right thing so that both parties are satisfied. This is especially true for sellers who are willing to accept checks, cash, or PayPal Gift from fellow members of this site.

In the case at hand, my impression is that the original ad heavily implied something material that wasn't true. This may have been inadvertent, but it is clear from the comments here that others, at least those who have posted so far, read the original ad the same way that I do.

Because the misrepresented issue (perhaps accidental) is material by any collector's standards, the buyer is asking for a reversal of the transaction or a discount from the prepaid price. To me, these seem like fair options. I would think that the seller and buyer could come to an agreement on the amount of the discount to be returned to the buyer.

I do not advocate PayPal Gift, although personally I use it almost exclusively on transactions I enter via this site. eBay is the site for formality, heavy fees, buyer beware mentality, and lies of omission. TheDarkTower.org is not.

I thank you for those cogent thoughts. I agree 100%.

[sgc1999]

agreed.

[stroppygoblin]

+1

I sold an item to a member here a while back that was previously advertised on eBay. I had already wrapped and boxed it up and mistakenly relied on my memory of its condition rather than double checking it. The buyer felt it was not to the condition it was described. I IMMEDIATELY offered a full refund and told him to keep the book (the amount involved meant it was not viable to ship back). He felt the book still had some value and we agreed on a discount.

We all make mistakes, it's how you deal with them that matters. My reputation as a seller (and a member) is worth far more to me than any amount of $$$

[burial]

+1

I sold an item to a member here a while back that was previously advertised on eBay. I had already wrapped and boxed it up and mistakenly relied on my memory of its condition rather than double checking it. The buyer felt it was not to the condition it was described. I IMMEDIATELY offered a full refund and told him to keep the book (the amount involved meant it was not viable to ship back). He felt the book still had some value and we agreed on a discount.

We all make mistakes, it's how you deal with them that matters. My reputation as a seller (and a member) is worth far more to me than any amount of $$$

I had a similar advanture with a member here (not stroppygoblin) but i was a buyer. I bought several books and one of them was in a bad shape and other had pencil markings. We all make mistakes. Seller offered me a refund for that book...
one month later... i bought another book from him...

I always paid via PP gift... well... i am a trusty person... i felt that the community here is so wonderful such things shouldn't happen.
Now i will have to rethink my opinion.

[mkb.redux]

+1

I sold an item to a member here a while back that was previously advertised on eBay. I had already wrapped and boxed it up and mistakenly relied on my memory of its condition rather than double checking it. The buyer felt it was not to the condition it was described. I IMMEDIATELY offered a full refund and told him to keep the book (the amount involved meant it was not viable to ship back). He felt the book still had some value and we agreed on a discount.

We all make mistakes, it's how you deal with them that matters. My reputation as a seller (and a member) is worth far more to me than any amount of $$$

I can't agree with this more, especially the last part. I love buying AND selling books, and have done it on (mostly) and off since I got my first bookstore job, back when Jimmy Carter was President, and hope to continue well after I retire. I was lucky enough to have really good mentors for my private work, and the best advice they ever gave was to treat everyone that I deal with exactly the way that I would hope to be treated, if I was a buyer.

I have been burned from both sides as we all have; I have made mistakes, and my enthusiasm has not always been helpful. But an investment in good service, and in treating people right, always pays off over the long run.

[Br!an]

I am not qualified to comment on the particulars here as I only collect G.R.R.M. on behalf of my son, but Simon has been a great and honest help to me in the past in this regard purchasing multiple signed GRRM editions from him for Xmas and I have had several other King related transactions with him in the past. He is always honest in his prices and knowledge, never afraid to say "I don't know, let me check". He is also fair to a fault, IMHO When it comes to this collectible genre, I trust him implicitly. From what I have read here in the past with regards to other similar LE sales of other titles, this does not seem to ring true as a fair, honest and equitable sale, on F-1' part. IMHO

For whatever my opinion and experiences are worth to the discussion.

That was very diplomatic.

Spoiler:

Who wrote this and what did you do with Bill?

[Rahfa]

I think what irritates me most is the trickle-down this may have.

I haven't sold anything on this site - but I was considering selling a bunch this summer...but while I've been on the site for a long time, I have no reputation as a seller.

After something like this, people would be less likely - and I wouldn't blame them - to pay me with PayPal gift. There'd be no track record they could judge, and even though I know I'm trustworthy, how does that help a buyer?

So seller behavior like this isn't just a problem between two people...it has an affect on everybody who wants to sell on the site. So anyone who thinks "well, this doesn't have anything to do with me..." - it might!

I may not even sell anything, so I'm using this as an example that we all should consider...I'm not that worried about myself. But if you're a prospective seller, you should take this personally.

[Johnny Alien]

After something like this, people would be less likely - and I wouldn't blame them - to pay me with PayPal gift. There'd be no track record they could judge, and even though I know I'm trustworthy, how does that help a buyer?

Why should they pay with paypal gift? Paypal gift takes away the security for both buyer and seller. Just ask for a price that can also cover paypal fees and ask for that amount. I will gladly accept paypal gift especially if the buyer would like to use it to help make the price lower but I will never require it at all. I will also pay via paypal gift to people I fully trust but I still get irritated if someone tells me I need to. There have been many times I have told people I will pay extra and send a standard payment. Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone. Things can happen outside of the seller's control.

[RC65]

After something like this, people would be less likely - and I wouldn't blame them - to pay me with PayPal gift. There'd be no track record they could judge, and even though I know I'm trustworthy, how does that help a buyer?

Why should they pay with paypal gift? Paypal gift takes away the security for both buyer and seller. Just ask for a price that can also cover paypal fees and ask for that amount. I will gladly accept paypal gift especially if the buyer would like to use it to help make the price lower but I will never require it at all. I will also pay via paypal gift to people I fully trust but I still get irritated if someone tells me I need to. There have been many times I have told people I will pay extra and send a standard payment. Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone. Things can happen outside of the seller's control.

I was formulating a reply in my head as I was reading all of these posts lamenting the undermining of the sanctity of trust involved with PayPal Gift, and then read your post...and I can't say it any better than that.

[Rahfa]

That's exactly my point - I wouldn't pay with PayPal gift either. THAT is the trickledown of just a couple bad sales.

But you should read my post again - I didn't say they "should" pay with Paypal gift.

[jhanic]

We impose very little in the way of rules for transactions here and zero in fees. We rely on our members to behave in a way that supports and reinforces the overarching spirit of buying and selling on this site which is that of trust, honesty, and generally doing the right thing so that both parties are satisfied. This is especially true for sellers who are willing to accept checks, cash, or PayPal Gift from fellow members of this site.

In the case at hand, my impression is that the original ad heavily implied something material that wasn't true. This may have been inadvertent, but it is clear from the comments here that others, at least those who have posted so far, read the original ad the same way that I do.

Because the misrepresented issue (perhaps accidental) is material by any collector's standards, the buyer is asking for a reversal of the transaction or a discount from the prepaid price. To me, these seem like fair options. I would think that the seller and buyer could come to an agreement on the amount of the discount to be returned to the buyer.

I do not advocate PayPal Gift, although personally I use it almost exclusively on transactions I enter via this site. eBay is the site for formality, heavy fees, buyer beware mentality, and lies of omission. TheDarkTower.org is not.

I agree completely. I trust those here on the site and have no qualms about using Paypal gift with them.

John

[tippy4]

I think what irritates me most is the trickle-down this may have.

I haven't sold anything on this site - but I was considering selling a bunch this summer...but while I've been on the site for a long time, I have no reputation as a seller.

After something like this, people would be less likely - and I wouldn't blame them - to pay me with PayPal gift. There'd be no track record they could judge, and even though I know I'm trustworthy, how does that help a buyer?

So seller behavior like this isn't just a problem between two people...it has an affect on everybody who wants to sell on the site. So anyone who thinks "well, this doesn't have anything to do with me..." - it might!

I may not even sell anything, so I'm using this as an example that we all should consider...I'm not that worried about myself. But if you're a prospective seller, you should take this personally.

There will be no trickle down in my opinion.

A year or two ago, a member blatantly ripped off several members of this site by selling the same book over and over and never delivering. As far as I can tell, people buy and sell on this site, and use Paypal Friends and Family just as often.

This situation is nowhere as bad as the previous one...in fact, it is just a simple disagreement in which a buyer and a seller are not seeing eye to eye on a sale.

This too shall pass.

[Rahfa]

That's a good point too...

In the end, people trust who they want to trust. With as many deals as are conducted, there will always be a few that go awry.

[Merlin1958]

I am not qualified to comment on the particulars here as I only collect G.R.R.M. on behalf of my son, but Simon has been a great and honest help to me in the past in this regard purchasing multiple signed GRRM editions from him for Xmas and I have had several other King related transactions with him in the past. He is always honest in his prices and knowledge, never afraid to say "I don't know, let me check". He is also fair to a fault, IMHO When it comes to this collectible genre, I trust him implicitly. From what I have read here in the past with regards to other similar LE sales of other titles, this does not seem to ring true as a fair, honest and equitable sale, on F-1' part. IMHO

For whatever my opinion and experiences are worth to the discussion.

That was very diplomatic.

Spoiler:

Who wrote this and what did you do with Bill?

I have my moments.

[TCCBodhi]

Why should they pay with paypal gift? Paypal gift takes away the security for both buyer and seller. Just ask for a price that can also cover paypal fees and ask for that amount. I will gladly accept paypal gift especially if the buyer would like to use it to help make the price lower but I will never require it at all. I will also pay via paypal gift to people I fully trust but I still get irritated if someone tells me I need to. There have been many times I have told people I will pay extra and send a standard payment. Hopefully that doesn't offend anyone. Things can happen outside of the seller's control.

I think I would be MOST wary of anyone demanding only Gift. That sets off all of my alarm bells. I haven't yet done a lot of buying/selling with other members because I'm frankly not that level of collector quite yet, I'm still building the base of mine, but here I'm not just looking at Selling/Buying Reputation. I'm also looking at how long they've been around, how active they've been in discussions. I think there is clearly a lesson here to new Sellers to make sure that your ad is crystal clear, particularly if their are time considerations and 'rights of successive ownership'.

I don't think I would let it put me off of Gift entirely within TDT, there are too many good people & trades, and too many that want to keep their good reputations. I'd just be more likely to be selective and do homework. If if didn't feel right, then either pay with Standard payment or don't do the deal.

[Lookwhoitis]

The Sellers that promote the cult of "Accept Paypal Gift!" around here are only promoting their own agenda.

Sending Paypal gift does nothing to help the buyer with the slight exception of potentially engendering some good favor with your seller by hooking him up with some benefits that HE gets while you as the buyer are left unprotected.

Paypal gift saves the seller 3%. Paypal gift ALSO permits the seller to have zero responsibility for delivering the item, FOR ANY REASON. That's right, Lost in the mail, act of God, seller acting like a horses ass, whatever. It doesn't matter. If you buy somethign (merchandise) throughthe mail and you send paypal friends and family, you are NOT PROTECTED. For ANY reason. You are SOL if ANYTHING Happens.

The reason why (IMO) some sellers see this as a positive is their responsibility ends as soon as they mail the item away. TheyDONT WANT to be able to be held liable if something happens to the package en route. They dont want the buyer to be able to make a claim. And all over 3% which is ridiculous.

If the 3% is such a big deal to you and sticking it to the corporate entity is so important then do something that benefits BOTH parties.

AGREE to SPLIT the 3% equally. or EVEN BETTER calculate the 3% into your purchase price and include it as a COST OF BUSINESS. Dont even TELL The buyer the price is 3% higher. Don't even believe you can make an extra 3% Profit.

DO WHAT IS BEST FOR BOTH PARTIES.

If a seller believes sticking the buyer with 3% is the model for their business, I wont do business with them. If the seller insists on a method of payment that leaves me the buyer with zero protection, then I wont even make a deal with them. It is Imprudent.

Everyone is all unicorns and rainbows over TRUST and COMMUNITY and all these ideals and I agree they are very Important, but DENYING a payment method in which BOTH sides are protected is ridiculous. If you REALLY WANTED to develop TRUST you would not be clamoring for a method in which only ONE SIDE IS PROTECTED!

If sgc had made his payment through paypal regular, it would be easy peasy. File a claim. Item not as described. Voila. Paypal refunds money. But because he did NOT, he screwed himself. and he gave the seller the wherewithal to hold the power in the deal. Paypal cant take his funds back. He holds all the power in the negotiation of any resolution. Not good business in my book.

[tippy4]

I'm convinced that two or three members here are Paypal spies sent to infiltrate our ranks to ensure they consistently get their 3%.

The Sellers that promote the cult of "Accept Paypal Gift!" around here are only promoting their own agenda.

What is your agenda? From your feedback rating, you don't sell here, so are you an advocate for buyers here?

Sending Paypal gift does nothing to help the buyer with the slight exception of potentially engendering some good favor with your seller by hooking him up with some benefits that HE gets while you as the buyer are left unprotected. .

Wrong, it potentially saves them 3%. Going forward, we are now going to see more sellers offering items for sale with two prices (F&F and Regular), or not taking F&F and just charging 3% more.

If the 3% is such a big deal to you and sticking it to the corporate entity is so important then do something that benefits BOTH parties.

AGREE to SPLIT the 3% equally. or EVEN BETTER calculate the 3% into your purchase price and include it as a COST OF BUSINESS. Dont even TELL The buyer the price is 3% higher. Don't even believe you can make an extra 3% Profit.

This does not benefit both parties, it hurts both parties in most cases.

If a seller believes sticking the buyer with 3% is the model for their business, I wont do business with them. If the seller insists on a method of payment that leaves me the buyer with zero protection, then I wont even make a deal with them. It is Imprudent.

That is your prerogative, and I think it is great that we can make these choices here.

Everyone is all unicorns and rainbows over TRUST and COMMUNITY and all these ideals and I agree they are very Important, but DENYING a payment method in which BOTH sides are protected is ridiculous. If you REALLY WANTED to develop TRUST you would not be clamoring for a method in which only ONE SIDE IS PROTECTED! .

How does "regular" Paypal payments protect the seller? And the reason everyone is all unicorns and rainbows is because 99% of the time, it works here.

If sgc had made his payment through paypal regular, it would be easy peasy. File a claim. Item not as described. Voila. Paypal refunds money. But because he did NOT, he screwed himself. and he gave the seller the wherewithal to hold the power in the deal. Paypal cant take his funds back. He holds all the power in the negotiation of any resolution. Not good business in my book.

You think Paypal would have just refunded his money that easy? I do not.

Bottom line, we are all adults here, and we can make our own decisions. Do what feels right to you.