General Discussion of the NFL

[Merlin1958]

He doesn't want to have a discussion ever. He just wants to win the discussion.

While I'm here. Regular season NFL MVP awards:

Peyton Manning: 5
Tom Brady: 2

For the record guys, The Yankee's are the GFOAT!!!! No other comes close to their dominance of a sport.

[DoctorZaius]

I partially agree with Merlin - not about the "bitch slap." It's is a waste of time to have a GOAT argument for all of football. The best football player of all time is ridiculously difficult, I would argue impossible, to quantify. Football is the ultimate team sport. The positions are just too highly specialized. There are interesting discussions to be had on WR-GOAT, TE-GOAT, etc. I suppose that you could have a GOAT argument on the NBA because of the reduced numbers of players that really impact a game, maybe even hockey, but baseball? No way - even for the Babe!

I am right with Matt that there is no argument regarding Brady as the QB-GOAT. I find it amusing that Gonk has been elevated to the "greatest tight end of all time" when he's being used to devalue Brady's career - so quick to dismiss Witten, Gonzalez, Gates, Sharpe, Ditka, Winslow, Bavaro, etc.? Gronk's career has not been long enough to judge, and the amount of time he spends on the DL each year limits his value. No one wants to devalue Montana for having Rice, or Manning for having Harrison. As for the regular season MVP numbers, give me a break. That's like the participation trophy we hand out in little league. This is about winning the SB, plain and simple. Head-To-Head is not a great barometer in football either because Manning and Brady never truly played against each other; they played against a defense. Do you really think that Manning beat Brady last year in the playoffs? It was one of the best defenses of all time that won that game, and same goes for the super bowl. Manning was along for the ride last year - do we take that super bowl off his stats? Brock could have gone down as the next Trent Dilfer had he been given the chance.

[Mattrick]

Matt, there is most certainly still a debate. Stop saying there isn't. You like posting stats, so look up Peyton Vs. Brady head-to-head playoff record and come back to me.

The argument that Brady never played with anybody doesn't fly with me either. Welker was a great receiver and so is Edelman. He's also played with the greatest TE of all-time.

Again, I know you can't take it away, but it took a terrible call and an interception by Butler to win Brady a Super Bowl. At the end of the day, that goes to him, but without Butler and the worst play call of all-time, Brady has 3 Super Bowl losses. Then there is the terrible play calling that opened the door for the greatest comeback of all-time.

Brady looked dreadful for most of SB 51. Not to mention he throws a pick 6. Getting to a bunch of Super Bowls does not mean he's the best.

Also, Brady should hold a lot of records. He's played forever and in an era where QBs throw the ball more. On top of that, throwing to the running back is a huge part of his game. He threw 20 passes to the running backs in the Super Bowl and one to the TE that was a screen from the line of scrimmage. Those are very high percentage throws and over a 100 receiving yards to the RBs.

Again, he's one of the greatest of all-time, but the fact that you're saying that there's no debate is, quite frankly, insulting. If you're trolling, just stop. I'm not one of those dolts you like to prey on.

The difference between my argument and yours is your using minutiae stats like 'Brady versus Manning', and stuff like blown calls and bad play calls (subjective) as reasons. For the past few years there has been a debate in sports talk and many sports people said Brady needed another championship to officially be the GOAT. Now he has it. I know the sports people in my area have all said he's the GOAT. I bet if you looked as hard for reasons he's the GOAT instead of reasons to detract from him being the GOAT, you'd accept it. What if Brady wins another one? Are you still going to find reasons to deny it? I'm not trolling, I've thought Brady was the GOAT for a few years now, and knew he was among the greatest for years before that, and now it's cemented. Most people have accepted it.

And yeah, throwing to the RB and TE is a big part of Brady's game. And his game is winning. Season after Season.

You want to compare Brady and Manning?

Brady's playoff record = 25 wins, 9 losses, .735%
Manning's playoff record = 14 wins, 13 losses, .519%

9 years Manning didn't get a win in the playoffs. He lost his first three playoff games. Brady won his first ten and only failed to win a playoff game in 2 seasons, '09 and '10.

Manning was also #1 overall pick and people expected him to be great. Brady was selected in the 6th round and only got a chance due to a Bledsoe injury. And he clobbered Manning and the Colts in his first career start. Not sure why you wanted me to look up Peyton vs. Brady for. Brady won his first six straight games against Peyton and holds a regular season record against him of 11-6, and a playoff record of 2-3, so all in all it's Brady 13, Peyton 9. Brady's team outscored Peyton's teams 497-410. Brady wins again!

Maybe Peyton has beaten Brady 1 extra time in the post season. That doesn't change the fact Manning is a habitual loser in the playoffs, with barely a winning record, overall has a losing record against Brady, and was carried to his second super bowl title by an incredible defense.

Sure, Brady looked terrible for most of SB51, but he made adjustments, didn't give up, led his team, proving he's so great, he can win a Super Bowl in 20 mins.

[Still Servant]

You're missing my point entirely. I don't even care if you think he's the GOAT. The fact that you are denying me the argument is what pisses me off. First of all, I don't care about your area. Canada is hardly the hub of football talk. Come where I am, the heart of Patriots country, and the debate is alive and well.

There are NFL experts and ex-players that would love to argue with you. All I'm saying is you can't say there's no debate. That takes all the fun out of sports talk.

You should know this more than anybody, Matt. You debate everything. I could sit here and say that the New York Yankees are the greatest baseball franchise of all-time and you will still argue why I'm wrong and that the Blue Jays are clearly the greatest franchise of all-time.

Your vote is for Brady, and I respect that, just don't say there's no debating it.

[fernandito]

So much butt fury flying around lmao.

I don't know if there's anything in sports that's inarguable, but if there is - Brady being the best QB of all time is almost one of those things. Beyond the stats, beyond the 830.33030% percentages.. its the sheer consistency and sense of inevitability that went hand in hand with those wins. If it was any other quarterback - and I mean ANY other quarterback - that went down 20-3 at half time, I would have said 'stick a fucking fork in them'. But even when the world seemed to crumbling around them, in the back of my mind I knew "... this is Brady."

To will your team back from the brink of annihilation takes balls. I myself am a fierce competitor, I hate losing even playing friendly games among family members and co workers, hell I almost got into a fight with my brother during a game because he wasn't giving it 100%.. so I have a tremendous amount of respect for Brady as a competitor whose fire never goes out.

[Still Servant]

So much butt fury flying around lmao.

I don't know if there's anything in sports that's inarguable, but if there is - Brady being the best QB of all time is almost one of those things. Beyond the stats, beyond the 830.33030% percentages.. its the sheer consistency and sense of inevitability that went hand in hand with those wins. If it was any other quarterback - and I mean ANY other quarterback - that went down 20-3 at half time, I would have said 'stick a fucking fork in them'. But even when the world seemed to crumbling around them, in the back of my mind I knew "... this is Brady."

To will your team back from the brink of annihilation takes balls. I myself am a fierce competitor, I hate losing even playing friendly games among family members and co workers, hell I almost got into a fight with my brother during a game because he wasn't giving it 100%.. so I have a tremendous amount of respect for Brady as a competitor whose fire never goes out.

Agreed. But you have to agree that for a QB to have a comeback like that he needs help. He got that help by a series of terrible play calls by the Falcons. You guys are all smart football fans. You're telling me you agree with the Falcons passing the ball on 3rd and 1 not once but twice while in field goal range?

Actually, I take back everything I said before. You guys are right, Brady is the best QB of all-time, Bill Belichick is the greatest head coach of all-time (sorry Lombardi) and the Pats are the greatest franchise of all-time (sorry Steelers and Cowboys).

This should have dawned on me earlier. Sorry for being a thickhead. This makes the fact that the New York Giants were able to beat these inhumans in the Super Bowl two times even more amazing. Honestly, I've never been more proud of my team than at this very moment. Thank you guys.

[St. Troy]

As a Pats fan, I don't worry too much about the GOAT opinions; I just consider myself fortunate that we've seen enough winning for it to be discussed. I am curious as to how the last 17 years would've played out with Joe Flacco or someone like that, who was good, possibly underrated, and who didn't implode at the first sign of intelligent defense.

I would say that this:
.

...for a QB to have a comeback like that he needs help. He got that help by a series of terrible play calls by the Falcons.

...sounds like someone is ignoring a pretty good (note: I'm not burdening the argument with GOAT stuff) Pats defense that apparently made some effective adjustments. And to restate a point I made earlier, the Falcons didn't know they were fighting for the game until it was very late indeed: they just played, but got outplayed.

[Mattrick]

You're missing my point entirely. I don't even care if you think he's the GOAT. The fact that you are denying me the argument is what pisses me off. First of all, I don't care about your area. Canada is hardly the hub of football talk. Come where I am, the heart of Patriots country, and the debate is alive and well.

I'm not denying you your argument. But I'm sick of hearing this talk about Current Player vs New Player and who is better. As a Canadian I've been listening to that for 13 years with Sidney Crosby vs. Gretzky (and now again with Connor McDavid), I've been hearing it about Brady vs. Montana, and with LeBron and Jordan, and the talk is even more in depth with baseball because so many current/recently retired players have the PED shroud around them. I just want this football QB one to be done. But people just have to find more reasons to discount it. Okay, maybe the Falcons made a few bad calls. Guess the entire season Brady where killed it, throwing only 2 interceptions, and coming back from the suspension to a record of 14-1 (including playoffs), means absolutely nothing and his unprecedented comeback win is diminished because he only threw short passes, the falcons made some bad calls, and he threw a pick6 during a bad half. That's not an argument.

There are NFL experts and ex-players that would love to argue with you. All I'm saying is you can't say there's no debate. That takes all the fun out of sports talk.

Let them argue. I can't believe they're not bored of it yet! Us Toronto sports fans (and believe me, football is huge in Canada, we have our own league dontcha know?) have stopped the conversation, which is fantastic.

You should know this more than anybody, Matt. You debate everything. I could sit here and say that the New York Yankees are the greatest baseball franchise of all-time and you will still argue why I'm wrong and that the Blue Jays are clearly the greatest franchise of all-time.

Yeah, I love to debate things, but there couldn't even be a way of arguing for the Jays to be the greatest franchise. Maybe they'd be in the conversation as best team in 93', but best franchise? Yankees have 27 championships with 40 appearances? But the Jays have never lost in the World Series, neither have The Marlins. The Yankees have lost 13 times! Surely we're better because we've lost less times!

Your vote is for Brady, and I respect that, just don't say there's no debating it.

I'm not saying there is no debating it, I'm saying when the debates are coming down to subjective opinions about play callings, finding ways to diminish the accomplishment by redistributing credit to other parts of the team which equally deserve their credit, and the difference between rules then and now, there isn't much argument to be had. We're talking having an 'in my day' discussion mixed with coulda woulda shoulda. And that just isn't fun at all.

[Still Servant]

You already won! Giants beat the greatest QB to walk the Earth twice. It's a glorious thing.

St. Troy. Some of the play calling in the 2nd half of that game was atrocious. The Pats could not stop the Falcons run game in the first half. What do they do in the second half? They stop running the ball as much! They had a chance for a field goal and decided to pass on 3rd and 1 which led to a sack.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, whenever a team in any sport has a collapse it means the team that collapsed contributed in some way. The Pats still had to take advantage of the situation and boy did they. The fact remains, it takes two to tango.

[St. Troy]

...whenever a team in any sport has a collapse it means the team that collapsed contributed in some way.

This is where I disagree: I would say comebacks are mainly an outlier of a positive type (one team increases their efficiency of execution), not a negative one (the other team suddenly becoming incompetent/foolish); explaining away such positive outliers by assuming that every mid-game team improvement (NE) is necessarily accompanied and amplified by an equal but opposite movement in the other team (as if in-game total football coaching IQ is a zero-sum system) is basically to insist on a "no one is that good" narrative, when, in the world of sports, for portions of games, many players/have temporarily become "that good."

The thing is, no one (not the Falcons, not the experts in the booth, not the bookies, and certainly not all the people who jumped in to retroactively find fault with the Falcons' play calling) had ANY idea there would be any problem with those plays until they didn't work. Haven't we learned anything since our early days as fans, when we yelled out "YOU SHOULD'VE RUN IT!" whenever a late-game pass play didn't work and vice versa?

I'm sure this must sound like I'm trying to make sure NE gets the credit, but I actually don't care about that (I'm just happy with the wins); I just think too much shit gets shoveled on the Seattle and Atlanta coaching staffs as if they really didn't know what they were doing, when in fact they were pretty damn good staffs.

...none of which is to say that I'm trying to talk you personally out of your position (which is a common one, as wrong as it seems to me); I just wanted to fully explain mine, especially since your opinion is such a widespread one.

[Still Servant]

Retroactive? I was yelling for them to run the ball on 3 and 1 when they were in field goal range. It's the safe play.

Let me ask you something. Let's make believe you are a Seahawks fan. They pass the ball instead of running it with Lynch. What do you say? Are you cool with that as a fan? "Oh well. Our coaches know best. There's always next year." Honestly, I'd love to know.

The same goes for Atlanta. Let's make believe you're a Falcons. You're not yelling for them to run the ball in that situation? You're not screaming for Ryan to throw the ball away instead of taking two sacks while in field goal range? If not you're the best fan ever.

All I'm saying is you have to put some of this on the Falcons. Even 10%. I never thought the game was over so while watching and playing along I always had protecting the lead as a priority.

[St. Troy]

Retroactive? I was yelling for them to run the ball on 3 and 1 when they were in field goal range. It's the safe play.

Sure, it's the safe play - on most 3rd and 1s, it's the play that most look for - including the defense. But as anyone who has ever watched a decent offensive team knows, sometimes the stacking on the line that goes on opens other things up - like a decent pass play that may effectively end or break open the game with a TD.

The play you wanted them to run wouldn't have been dumb at all - but there was no reason to think that any play this team, which scored SO much more than any other team this season, ran would actually be a bad idea. You say you were yelling for them to run the ball - fine. But this isn't about league completion averages and similar stat nonsense - this is about what this offensive unit was capable of, which was quite a bit.

Let's make believe you are a Seahawks fan. They pass the ball instead of running it with Lynch. What do you say?

First I'd say "what the hell just happened?" After viewing the replay I'd say "how the hell did Butler get there in time?" But since my QB is fine and my receivers can play, and since there were clock and down management issues that favored a pass play, it would not have occurred to me to blindly think that, since the play they ran didn't work, the one they didn't run would have worked (the "8 year old fan" logic behind much of the criticism of Atlanta). Pete Carroll used to be a coach in NE; I remember him, and I know he ain't the best coach in the league - but he didn't do shit wrong here. He came within a whisker of winning. No blame to go around.

Let's make believe you're a Falcons. You're not yelling for them to run the ball in that situation? You're not screaming for Ryan to throw the ball away instead of taking two sacks while in field goal range?

In that case, I'm screaming for them to make a play of any kind - and knowing the superhuman receivers (tall, fast, strong) they have, I'm not exactly thinking of running a lesser team's offensive sets. Had one more pass found its target at the right time, this "Atlanta playcalled stupidly" narrative dissolves amidst plans for a parade, and the dominant narrative would be how over the hill Brady and Belichick are.

...I always had protecting the lead as a priority.

Well, there's protecting the lead, and then there's protecting the lead. Stopping NE one time would have won the game - but so would have scoring one more time. Clearly, that's what Atlanta was thinking of doing, and now, that's their regret - "had we just scored one more time, we would have won." Scoring was something they'd done all year, without advice from any of us. They knew what they were doing - and they still got beat. It happens. Sometimes the outcome is the result of two good teams who both know what they were doing - the loser isn't always a bunch of bums.

[Still Servant]

First I'd say "what the hell just happened?" After viewing the replay I'd say "how the hell did Butler get there in time?" But since my QB is fine and my receivers can play, and since there were clock and down management issues that favored a pass play, it would not have occurred to me to blindly think that, since the play they ran didn't work, the one they didn't run would have worked (the "8 year old fan" logic behind much of the criticism of Atlanta). Pete Carroll used to be a coach in NE; I remember him, and I know he ain't the best coach in the league - but he didn't do shit wrong here. He came within a whisker of winning. No blame to go around.

I was at a Super Bowl party with 22 people. Everyone of them thought Carroll should have run the ball in that spot. I still think the Pats would have let them score too. Just like they did with the Giants and Bradshaw. Go back and watch NFL films of that game. There is a Pats defensive player that says in the huddle, "We have to let them score here." The situation was almost identical. BB was going to let them score there. I will believe that until the day I die. Also, Google it, it's considered one of the worst play calls ever. I'm not making this up.

Well, there's protecting the lead, and then there's protecting the lead. Stopping NE one time would have won the game - but so would have scoring one more time. Clearly, that's what Atlanta was thinking of doing, and now, that's their regret - "had we just scored one more time, we would have won." Scoring was something they'd done all year, without advice from any of us. They knew what they were doing - and they still got beat. It happens. Sometimes the outcome is the result of two good teams who both know what they were doing - the loser isn't always a bunch of bums.

But the Falcons defense was wearing down. Anybody could see that. They were on the field the whole game, hence why they should have been running the ball more than ever in the second half of the game. They needed to protect the lead, protect the defense. How do you do that? You run the ball. That's what you do. Am I just going crazy here? I feel like I'm going crazy. The is football 101 stuff here and people are making it seem like I'm coming up with some kind of new x's and o's strategy here.

[Merlin1958]

Wait, did someone just mention, The Blue Jays, The Yankees and TGOAT in the same sentence? Please, The Yanks have more pennants than the Jays have years in the league for God's sake!!! lol lol


And to stay on topic, I knew the Falcon's were gonna blow it the second they went for a pass on second down and in FG range to make it an 11 point game. Pat's sacked, Ryan and took them out of range and that was the game right there.

[St. Troy]

I was at a Super Bowl party with 22 people. Everyone of them thought Carroll should have run the ball in that spot. I still think the Pats would have let them score too.

Funny that NE didn't take the "let 'em score" attitude on the pass play they actually ran; that must've been an ad lib by Butler. Lucky for NE, eh?

[Merlin1958]

I was at a Super Bowl party with 22 people. Everyone of them thought Carroll should have run the ball in that spot. I still think the Pats would have let them score too.

Funny that NE didn't take the "let 'em score" attitude on the pass play they actually ran; that must've been an ad lib by Butler. Lucky for NE, eh?

My Lord, give it up. They got lucky. Nothing wrong with that. Now, if "JPP" had been there, well....... lol

[Mattrick]

Wait, did someone just mention, The Blue Jays, The Yankees and TGOAT in the same sentence? Please, The Yanks have more pennants than the Jays have years in the league for God's sake!!! lol lol

It was the Yankees fan who did it

[Jon]

So...did Mattrick take Tom's jersey?

[Still Servant]

I was at a Super Bowl party with 22 people. Everyone of them thought Carroll should have run the ball in that spot. I still think the Pats would have let them score too.

Funny that NE didn't take the "let 'em score" attitude on the pass play they actually ran; that must've been an ad lib by Butler. Lucky for NE, eh?

When you see they aren't running the ball, you react. He reacted and made a great play. Regardless, run the ball on 2nd down. If you want to throw on 3rd and 4th, knock yourself out.

[DoctorZaius]

I was at a Super Bowl party with 22 people. Everyone of them thought Carroll should have run the ball in that spot. I still think the Pats would have let them score too.

Funny that NE didn't take the "let 'em score" attitude on the pass play they actually ran; that must've been an ad lib by Butler. Lucky for NE, eh?

When you see they aren't running the ball, you react. He reacted and made a great play. Regardless, run the ball on 2nd down. If you want to throw on 3rd and 4th, knock yourself out.

More than just a reaction. It was great coaching and fine execution. Everyone knew that was Pete's go to pass play on the goal line. The Pats had practiced that very situation at Saturday's walkthrough, with emphasis on Pete's tendency for it. Butler paid attention, and when he got his chance he executed just like he had been coached.

[Still Servant]

All the more reason to run the ball. As I mentioned. They could have passed the ball on 3rd or 4th.

Lynch gets in there in that situation whether they let him or not. Carroll got outcoached and the Seahawks WR got outworked.

[Jon]

Yep...I know a Seahawks fan...it should have been 3 off tackle dives...if 3 were needed.

[fernandito]

All I'm saying is you have to put some of this on the Falcons. Even 10%. I never thought the game was over so while watching and playing along I always had protecting the lead as a priority.

I think you're under the impression that we're attributing the result specifically to the Pats' actions. That is not the case. The Falcons had 50% input in what happened that day.

What I'm debating is that no other combination of QB, Coach or team in the NFL right now is capable of executing the other 50% that was needed to complete the equation. Beyond their physical capabilities, NE's mental fortitude is probably the best the NFL will ever see.

And again, I'm a Packers fan. I have no emotional stake in whatever accomplishments the Pats have. Just giving mad props to that entire organization for pulling off a win of that magnitude.

[Still Servant]

All I'm saying is you have to put some of this on the Falcons. Even 10%. I never thought the game was over so while watching and playing along I always had protecting the lead as a priority.

I think you're under the impression that we're attributing the result specifically to the Pats' actions. That is not the case. The Falcons had 50% input in what happened that day.

What I'm debating is that no other combination of QB, Coach or team in the NFL right now is capable of executing the other 50% that was needed to complete the equation. Beyond their physical capabilities, NE's mental fortitude is probably the best the NFL will ever see.

And again, I'm a Packers fan. I have no emotional stake in whatever accomplishments the Pats have. Just giving mad props to that entire organization for pulling off a win of that magnitude.

I'd agree with that. All I'm saying is many of my friends who are Patriots fans are saying that it was all Pats and the Falcons did nothing to contribute to the collapse. I just think that's insane.

Jon, as a Seahawks fan, what were you calling for before that play was called. If you can remember back to that moment?

[DoctorZaius]

All I'm saying is you have to put some of this on the Falcons. Even 10%. I never thought the game was over so while watching and playing along I always had protecting the lead as a priority.

I think you're under the impression that we're attributing the result specifically to the Pats' actions. That is not the case. The Falcons had 50% input in what happened that day.

What I'm debating is that no other combination of QB, Coach or team in the NFL right now is capable of executing the other 50% that was needed to complete the equation. Beyond their physical capabilities, NE's mental fortitude is probably the best the NFL will ever see.

And again, I'm a Packers fan. I have no emotional stake in whatever accomplishments the Pats have. Just giving mad props to that entire organization for pulling off a win of that magnitude.

I'd agree with that. All I'm saying is many of my friends who are Patriots fans are saying that it was all Pats and the Falcons did nothing to contribute to the collapse. I just think that's insane.

Jon, as a Seahawks fan, what were you calling for before that play was called. If you can remember back to that moment?

Funny, I'm in the heart of Patriot Nation and I have yet to meet anyone who does not acknowledge that the Falcons made many mistakes, but as fernandito points out, few teams would have the mental wherewithal to bring it on home like the Patriots did. Just ask the the Packers who came up short two weeks earlier.