Kickstarter

[Ben Staad]

I know this is not an SK project but I am confused by this. Is this anything other then a blatant attempt by a legit company to fund a project before it gets going?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...joe-r-lansdale

Isn't this odd and an attempt to eliminate any risk associated with doing business? I thought that as a business owner you would like to "put it out there" because you truly beleive you are delivering a great product that will be well recieved by your target market.

I like this company and love the artists listed but this seems bizarre to me. Mods please move this if needed.

[herbertwest]

Kickstarter is popular, but that doesnt mean that there is no risk in it. There have been numerous (but that remains only a small portion) stories of people leaving with the money, and on the other way, of some projects being too successful it brought projects to failure.
So managing to reach the target & therefore a project funded, is ONLY the beginning...As then you have take the project to completion & success!

Also, earlier this year, Neil Gaiman's wife/gf, amanda palmer had the most successful Kickstarter campaign ever for an album. And a very interesting TedX video from Amanda Palmer >>> http://www.ted.com/talks/amanda_palm...of_asking.html

[Rahfa]

It's not much different than Cemetery Dance (or any company) charging for pre-orders....the big difference is refunds are not as easy thru Kickstarter.

In this case, you see what you're going to get, the author has credibility, the project looks fairly well-planned, so I don't see any issue with it. Think of it as a pre-order.

But yeah, some Kickstarter projects are just self-indulgent vanity affairs that people want money for, without doing any risk first - I say that as someone who's done two Kickstarter projects!

[Ben Staad]

I suppose I could look at it that way but a pre-order usually means I'm getting what I ordered. Kickstarter projects only occur if they hit their target goal, right? I suppose I don't mind this type of thing but I would like to see something like this reserved for true start ups and not established businesses or individuals. For a new publisher, artist, designer, etc this could be an awesome way to be discovered but DRP and Joe L are already established and shouldn't really need the help.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. If backers are out there for a project than so be it.

[Merlin1958]

I suppose I could look at it that way but a pre-order usually means I'm getting what I ordered. Kickstarter projects only occur if they hit their target goal, right? I suppose I don't mind this type of thing but I would like to see something like this reserved for true start ups and not established businesses or individuals. For a new publisher, artist, designer, etc this could be an awesome way to be discovered but DRP and Joe L are already established and shouldn't really need the help.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. If backers are out there for a project than so be it.

Sorry, but I agree with, Tim. This seems somehow wrong. IMHO

[Merlin1958]

I suppose I could look at it that way but a pre-order usually means I'm getting what I ordered. Kickstarter projects only occur if they hit their target goal, right? I suppose I don't mind this type of thing but I would like to see something like this reserved for true start ups and not established businesses or individuals. For a new publisher, artist, designer, etc this could be an awesome way to be discovered but DRP and Joe L are already established and shouldn't really need the help.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. If backers are out there for a project than so be it.

Sorry, but I agree with, Tim. This seems somehow wrong. IMHO

[bdwyer19]

I suppose I could look at it that way but a pre-order usually means I'm getting what I ordered. Kickstarter projects only occur if they hit their target goal, right? I suppose I don't mind this type of thing but I would like to see something like this reserved for true start ups and not established businesses or individuals. For a new publisher, artist, designer, etc this could be an awesome way to be discovered but DRP and Joe L are already established and shouldn't really need the help.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. If backers are out there for a project than so be it.

Sorry, but I agree with, Tim. This seems somehow wrong. IMHO

I completely agree. A friend of mine just used Kickstarter as a way of starting up a brand new business. She had a goal of $25,000, and donations only kicked in when that goal was met. Those authors really should not be associated with a Kickstarter project.

[mistercrowley]

I think DRP basically did it because they are afraid to take the risk on their own. Many of their books do not sell out and if you wait a few months you can usually get them at half off on one of their sales. Kickstarter basically guarantees they won't lose money. I don't agree with it at all. Merlin is right on.

[Merlin1958]

I think DRP basically did it because they are afraid to take the risk on their own. Many of their books do not sell out and if you wait a few months you can usually get them at half off on one of their sales. Kickstarter basically guarantees they won't lose money. I don't agree with it at all. Merlin is right on.

Hey, thanks!! Nice to be on away from the "Dark Side" for a change!! Though the more I think about it, if a hardcore group of fans wants to pony up for the next title in their favorite authors works, who are we to complain? Risky business though to be sure. Especially in the "Small Press publishing" world. The whole thing brings to mind David Bowie, ten+ years ago. He got together with financial guys and issued "Royalty backed" Corporate bonds. I was amazed, but impressed at the ingenuity.

I still think this is somehow wrong, but to each his/her own I suppose.

[Ari_Racing]

On the other hand I LOVE Kickstarter and for my work field has been incredible (video games). I'm checking how it turns out when it comes to books.

[mattgreenbean]

With Kickstarter you HAVE to meet your goal or you get nothing. Whereas with some of the other crowd-funding sites you simply get donations and reward the donators. So DRP isn't just money grabbing, but trying a new strategy to get fans excited about books.

It would be odd for Scribner to use a Kickstarter. DRP, not so much.

[Rahfa]

Yeah, there's some misunderstanding about Kickstarter.

If they failed to raise the money, they get no money. So it's true they aren't willing to take a risk without some awareness that their fan base is actually interested - like I said, it's basically pre-orders for the books, with some of the higher funding levels coming with original art, etc.

I'm not sure what the "risk" part has to do with anything....if there was a risk they were taking, it was the gamble that they would not have been able to raise $25K, in which case the project is stuck in place.

So they have a motivated fan base willing to get involved early on, and allow financing of an interesting project...since the creative team has earned credibility with their whole career, I think backers can expect the book to actually show up (although, that is a risk with Kickstarter).

I'm much less a fan of Kickstarter projects used by amatuers who want the money FIRST and THEN they'll produce the project....that's a money grab. Plenty of people try to raise $50K or whatever to pay for their vanity book/film, and that's absurd - you should have taken the risk BEFORE expecting people to bankroll it. That's not the case here.

If, as in this case, you're a legitimate author simply looking for pre-funding, that's no different than Cemetery Dance taking pre-orders months/years ahead of time. And that's just a normal business practice.

[mistercrowley]

Here is what Steven Savile had to say on Kickstarter. He's very familiar with the process.

" it's micro-financing on a basically tiny venture cap scale meaning everyone can invest in projects, knowing the risks involved in making those investments and despite what they *think* the nature of micro-financing is such that not all products get made and there's fuck all people can do to get their cash back if something goes wrong. We've had some fairly high profile failures of late where people were supporting computer games and board games and viewed it as pre-ordering but customers who bought directly off the company website were the ones who were refunded, not the kickstarters. People using kickstarter as a form of preordering stuff need to realise that kickstarter's own view on this is 'creators have a good faith deal to bring their products to market'. 60 days after the funding pledge is complete Amazon who run the money side of kickstarter CANNOT issue a refund.

"By means of its explanation, Kickstarter plays the laissez-faire card, saying the website has no responsibility in creating or compensating a project.
When the going gets tough, Kickstarter backs off.
"If [the creator's] problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution," the blog said. "Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.""

Only COULD include... so a publisher could say x was paid to the writer, y was paid to the artist, etc money was eaten up in the design... and we just couldn't afford to bring the product to market in the end...

Again from Kickstarter themselves: ""Kickstarter is not another way to window shop on the internet for cool new stuff. You're not just investing in a product, you're investing in the creator and sometimes investments fail. When that happens, generally, if the project creator gave a good faith effort to bring the product to market, the money has been spent. As with all investments, there is a risk involved."

In Sept 2012 they posted "Kickstarter is not a Store' as a blog trying to explain what risks and challenges are and why things fail. The founders concluded the post, saying, "We hope these updates reinforce that Kickstarter isn't a traditional retail experience and underline the uniqueness of Kickstarter."

As the statement says, while backers can take legal recourse at their reward not being received, it’s still pretty shitty if they do when there’s good faith in place. And that’s a position some developers are going to be in. The money’s going to be spent. They’re not going to have $30k to give back to people once a development has failed. Because they spent it failing. And I’d argue that’s perfectly reasonable.

And as of May 2012, when a user clicks 'Pledge' on a project page, Kickstarter now displays a message in the upper-right hand corner of the page: "Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. It is the responsibility of the project creator to complete their project as promised, and the claims of this project are theirs alone."

So all in all, people *thinking* they're just pre-ordering stuff - they *aren't* no matter what Chris says he's using Kickstarter for - anyone backing a project is taking a risk of non-delivery."

[Rahfa]

This is all 100 percent right, especially the last part:

So all in all, people *thinking* they're just pre-ordering stuff - they *aren't* no matter what Chris says he's using Kickstarter for - anyone backing a project is taking a risk of non-delivery."

Which is why I would be hesitant to support any project that's being constructed out of the blue...like "I'm going to write a book once I raise a $50K so I have the freedom and time! Yay!" That would be silly...

In a case like this, though, the project has the credibility of the authors...I think you could be confident it would work out...but of course, that doesn't mean it will. From that respect, I can see why people would be hesitant to support it - be safer to just wait until they start taking official pre-orders.

[WeDealInLead]

It's a smart and safe move on Lansdale's part. Why would he write a novella that could end up losing him money (couldn't sell it) when he could spend that time writing another book for Little & Brown (his publisher) for a considerably higher payday? I understand everything Saville is talking about.

I'm not a big fan of Kickstarter in general. I didn't kick in for Lansdale but I think I'll regret that decision. The perks were really nice and more attractive than just a regular pre-order (which can also be late, never published, taken before the book is written, can morph into something else etc.) Also, if Piccirilli's book (first one in the series) is any indicator of how nice this book will be, I'm sure all the backers will be more than pleased. I don't own a copy, but that book looks really nice, like a real collectible, not just a what is basically a trade hardcover with a signature page.