View Poll Results: Was Flagg needed in the series?

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    43 69.35%
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Thread: Randall Flagg - discussion of the character and his many guises

  1. #301
    Along the Path of the Beam a fan is on a distinguished road

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    It is mentioned in The Dark Tower (B7). It is in one of the few narratives from Mordred's perspective. He thinks of joining the Ka-Tet, but ultimately decides he hates his White father Roland. He decides The Crimson King is his 'Real' father.

    From what I remember, there is a subtext going on revealing only with the slightest notion in which Mordred wants to be a part of the Ka-Tet. Try reading TDT 7 again.



    i thamk the desition that he hates roland came only from a felling of being unwanted and not acual hate
    "First comes the smiles, then lies. last is gunfire"
    - Roland Deschain, of Gilead

  2. #302
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    sorry about just coping insted of quoting my computer in not leting me
    "First comes the smiles, then lies. last is gunfire"
    - Roland Deschain, of Gilead

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19eye-rosecrow-gun View Post
    I don't remember it ever saying that Maerlyn was more powerful than CK. I have heard that Maerlyn was a good guy in some readings, but in TDT mythos it makes him out to be evil. I think Maerlyn was a man, and an evil one in this world. CK might have taken him in as an emissary had he not crawled away and disappeared.

    CK is the most evil, even during his insanity at the end. Roland was able to face him because they are brothers in a way, so it wasn't hard for him. Patrick Danville confuses me.

    In terms of Flagg, no CK is more powerful because he is more evil. Flagg is a man and possibly a demi-god, but not with the abilities of CK and Mordred. CK and Mordred were more or less old things of the prim that are born as inherent evil of nature. Flagg chose his path of evil. I believe Mordred chose to help the ka-tet as much as he could, but he knew he'd never be able to join them. He was far too treacherous. These are only my interpretations. Where does it say Maerlyn is more powerful? Song of Susannah, or elsewhere?
    Oh, you probably only read the trade editions. In the single comic issues as originally released, there were text stories appended, along with encyclopedic entries that later were used for the guidebook/almanac issues. These legends of Mid-World definitely served as the basis for the "Sorcerer" story you were referring to, and they talk about Maerlyn arising from the prim in ancient times and leading all of the other demons for thousands of years. It was even reportedly his idea to set CK's mother up with Arthur Eld.

    Whether Robin Furth was going too far past the canon of the novels is indeed a big question. All of that comes from her, though; it's hard to see how you could accept some without accepting it all.

  4. #304
    Gunslinger Apprentice Tik will become famous soon enough Tik's Avatar

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    Why should Mordred be more powerful than RF in that case? Isn't the Maerlyn of the comics more powerful than the Crimson King?
    Oh, you probably only read the trade editions. In the single comic issues as originally released, there were text stories appended, along with encyclopedic entries that later were used for the guidebook/almanac issues. These legends of Mid-World definitely served as the basis for the "Sorcerer" story you were referring to, and they talk about Maerlyn arising from the prim in ancient times and leading all of the other demons for thousands of years. It was even reportedly his idea to set CK's mother up with Arthur Eld.

    Whether Robin Furth was going too far past the canon of the novels is indeed a big question. All of that comes from her, though; it's hard to see how you could accept some without accepting it all.
    Maerlyn is not in charge of the other demons. He's a key player in the cosmic chess game between the White (Gan) and the Outer Dark but thats it. Remember, from the comics it states that "Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup". That other demiurge is the true form of the Crimson King, the force of the Outer Dark. And its stated in that comic that the force of the Outer Dark is what created Maerlyn and the other demons. Thats the entity thats in charge.

    Unlike the Crimson King, Maerlyn doesn't display any power over ka but is instead used by it. The Laughing Mirror shards infecting reality and getting the Crimson Queen pregnant demonstrates this very clearly - both events are of great importance to the Outer Dark/Random but this happens by accident on Maerlyn's part. In Insomnia Dorrance tells the main characters that Gans minions sent them to do one thing but the White/Purpose/Gan wanted them to do another:
    "Clotho and Lachesis may have sent you to High Ridge for the wrong reasons, but the Purpose sent you there for the right ones. You fulfilled your task there."
    The same thing applies to Maerlyn. He may be doing these schemes for his own ends but ultimately they fulfill the will of the Outer Dark/Random in ways he never even knew or understood.

    An happy accident by Maerlyn (and a planned move by the Random) infected reality via the Mirrors shards allowing the forces of the Outer Dark to infect every level of the Tower. Then another accident by Maerlyn (and another planned move in this cosmic game) resulted in the Outer Dark/Random having an avatar in Mid-World itself....Los' the Crimson King.

    We see the Crimson King manipulate fate/ka many many times throughout the DT series, the tie-in books, and the comics. This is much more power than Maerlyn ever displayed. And thats why Mordred is above Flagg in the cosmic pecking order. Although he is mortal due to being part human, he also has the power of the Crimson King - himself the very avatar of the Outer Dark - running through his veins.

  5. #305
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    Oy!

  6. #306
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958's Avatar

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    I had to vote "Yes", but I think it bears some qualifying. First off, I think there are two very different categories of folks who read this series, at this point. Those who read it as it was published (like me), and those who can read it after the fact. I suppose fandom comes into play as well. To me though, Flagg represented much, much more than as you have illustrated. He was the Antagonist in "The Stand" and "EOTD" and lurked about in several other stories as those of us waiting for the next installment searched for clues in King's writing like Beatle's fans did playing records backwards.

    That was why, to me at least, his exit in the series was so catacysmically WRONG!!!! However, to understand all this (and much more that my meager writing skills do not permit) you had to BE There. He just represented so much more!!! If, you weren't unfortunately, you will just not get it.

    Does all that make any sense to others?

  7. #307
    John F. Kennedy grobblewobble will become famous soon enough

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    Default bad guy identities

    In this book I became rather confused about identities. We have:

    Randall Flag
    Maerlyn
    The Crimson King
    Marten
    Walter
    The Ageless Stranger
    Sayre
    John Farson
    The Wizard of Oz

    And there have been many statements like "bad guy X is in fact the same as bad guy Y". The problem is, there have been so many of this type of statement that I lost track. Are any two names in the above list definitely *not* the same guy?

  8. #308
    Gunslinger Apprentice RolandLover will become famous soon enough

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    The Wizard of Oz and John Farson aren't the same guy. Maerlyn/Crimson King aren't either I don't think. Randall Flag/Marten/Walter did confuse me in the book but they are the same.

  9. #309
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    Just a suggestion, but Robin Furth's "The Dark Tower: A Complete Concordance" is an excellent reference for the books. She was King's Administrative assistant specifically for the Dark Tower novels. Great stuff and well organized.

  10. #310
    John F. Kennedy grobblewobble will become famous soon enough

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    Thanks. I will buy that compendium at some point, it sounds like a great reference.

    Also, I did some research (google, wiki, official site) to find out more about it. Interestingly, on the official site it is stated that:

    AGELESS STRANGER: Another name for the great sorcerer Maerlyn. Roland will have to slay him in order to reach the Tower.
    And from other sources, the Ageless Stranger is identified as Marten / Walter / Flagg.

    So now we have:

    Bad guy #1:
    Walter = Marten = Flagg = Wizard of Oz = Ageless Stranger = Maerlyn

    (This bad guy reminds me of a forum troll, with an endless supply of duplicate accounts. )

    Bad guy #2:
    The Crimson King, chief bad guy

    Bad guy #3:
    Sayre, who seems to be just a particularly high ranked low man.

    Bad guy #4:
    John Farson, who is identified as another troll account name for Walter at one point, but from a number of other sources clearly seems to be someone else, as Walter is said to have served under him.

    PS: if Walter is indeed Maerlyn, that also explains why Black Thirteen was in his possession.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    Walter = Marten = Flagg = Wizard of Oz = Ageless Stranger = Maerlyn

    (This bad guy reminds me of a forum troll, with an endless supply of duplicate accounts. )

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  12. #312
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    Bad guy #1:
    Walter = Marten = Flagg = Wizard of Oz = Ageless Stranger = Maerlyn
    .....

    PS: if Walter is indeed Maerlyn, that also explains why Black Thirteen was in his possession.
    To be even more confusing, he states to the Tick Tock man in The Waste Lands "I was never that one." (You can add Richard Fannin to Walter's aliases too.)

    Spoiler:
    They may be related though. If you read the comic One Shot The Sorceror you will find out in what way. It was written by Robin Furth, but based on information she gleaned from King. Not everyone is happy with that story's version though for reasons that may become apparent as you read on through the novels, but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.

  13. #313
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Spoiler:
    ... but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.
    Well, you can never have too much mystique, right?

  14. #314
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Spoiler:
    ... but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.
    Well, you can never have too much mystique, right?
    Actually, its "Aura & Mystique" and most of it resides at Yankee Stadium. According to Curt Schilling!!!

  15. #315
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Spoiler:
    ... but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.
    Well, you can never have too much mystique, right?
    Reading my post back, I wish I'd used a different word than 'mystique'. It strikes me as corny. Heh.
    Spoiler:
    What I meant was that the sense of ambiguity resulting from the different origin stories* isn't out of place with a character like Walter. And it's quite possible he lied in The Sorcerer, to increase his sense of importance. He is narrator after all.

    *I actually don't think they're a contradiction. They can fit together well enough, it just requires a bit of reinterpretation.


    I probably didn't need to spoilerify that as I don't give anything away but anyway...

    And yeah... she's a looker.

  16. #316
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    Actually, its "Aura & Mystique" and most of it resides at Yankee Stadium. According to Curt Schilling!!!
    Heh. Silly Englishman that I am, that gag went right over my noggin*.

    *translation: The large melon shaped object on top of my neck that rattles when I shake it.

  17. #317
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958 seldom gets put on hold Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    Actually, its "Aura & Mystique" and most of it resides at Yankee Stadium. According to Curt Schilling!!!
    Heh. Silly Englishman that I am, that gag went right over my noggin*.

    *translation: The large melon shaped object on top of my neck that rattles when I shake it.
    LOL Back in 2001, when 9/11 shook NYC, the Yanks played the D-Backs in the World Series. It sorta helped NY get back on it's feet after the tradgedy. At one point Curt Schilling, a pitcher for the D-Backs made a comment regarding the "Aura & Mystique" of Yankee Stadium being the "Cathedral of Baseball" and it sorta bit him and his team on the ass. At least, in NYC. The D-Backs went on to win their one and only championship in 7 games on a late inning hit by Luis Gonzalez off of the greatest Reliever in history, Mariano Rivera. One of his very, very few mis-steps in the post-season.

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