Well, I suppose I do have a preference for that type of story/plot where what I consider the Classic "Evil" is portrayed (The Devil, Demons, Original Vamps, Etc). I suppose it comes down to personal tastes. In any case, I think both are well written books just different. Though as I suggested perhaps, there was a "personal" agenda at work in DC as opposed to NT which may make it seem more impassioned, inspired writing.Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
My Collection: https://www.thedarktower.org/palaver...ion-Merlin1958
The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
Nothing wrong with subjective preference.Your "personal" hypothesis, idk about, but I do rather suspect the agenda behind NT was strongly a professional one. I mean, I might be wrong, but I don't think he wrote it and finally realized it would be the last Castle Rock story; (seemingly) it always felt like he began with that objective, to wrap up the stories of that setting, and devised a vehicle thereafter.
DESPERATION SPOILERS IN POST
Hopefully that spoiler warning will keep people away...hate having mutliple spoiler tags in a post. The first 200 pages of Desperation was excellent. What made it excellent was how much mystery there was; why was Entragion so insane? Why was he setting people up? Where is everyone in the town? The book had everything going for it: an incomprehensible villain, an isolated, secluded ghost town atmosphere, interesting characters, and true suspense: I mean true by the sense it was about a small town police officer running mad. I would have preferred if the visage of a desperate power struggle of innocence against someone drunk with authority remained. The stakes are very real, so the characters at first are honestly (we would be too) afraid. Then not long after NOSE DIVE.
The character of Tak should have been shrouded with mystery, but instead we basically read it's damn diary learning everything from how he killed everyone, how he takes the form of new bodies, we know what body we switches too (wasted moment there) and why that body starts to deteriorate rapidly due to it being on it's period. Mordred shitting on himself was realistic, he was a child without parents or any life skills, its pitiable; then you have Tak, who gets gratuitous mention of his shells vagina bleeding and ruining his plans, which is funny because doesn't reveal anything about Tak. We watch Tak go from this frightening, domineering, psychopathic force to something we laugh at because it just gets dumber and dumber and more pathetic as the novel wears on, to the point where I couldn't even take him seriously anymore and when Tak was gone I was happy for him, because King couldn't hurt him anymore.
Then we have the the entire 'god' storyline with David. A plotline like this, much like the force that was Tak, should have been handled with some ambiguity but King instead walks us by the hand through excruciating flashback sequences, all the way towards the final moments when he straight up says 'God did save them, here is the piece of paper to prove it' which makes the entire goddamn book pointless. So they were put there by God to kill Tak? Well, Tak was so retarded he would have died anyways. This entire exposition made all the characters completely redundant, except for David. This book could have been just David in the town, with his parents taken away and it would have been much more entertaining. The only aspect of the book I thoroughly enjoyed through was the assistance (can't recall his name) and the hitchhiker and their journey, as it expanded on the dread and mystery that the main plot line destroys anyways.
By the end of the book we aren't scared of Tak, because he's pathetic; we also discover what he is, where he came from, how he came from there and the characters pieces all this together better than Dexter Morgan pieces a crime scene together. Then the book is over and I couldn't believe how bad the book was, considering how much I was looking forward to it. Desperation was the name of the town; now I think it was how King felt trying to make this mess work. It is sad because Desperation started off as it could have been great; it was gritty and real with a hint of something otherworldly going on. By the end all realism and grit and humanity was ripped from this book and I walked away thinking that I'd never seen a great idea go so badly.
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Well, touché: from a structural standpoint, I suppose a little more mystery could have strengthened the plot. Obviously, I think you're being too harsh with that, but it's a point. And I usually don't look at it from exactly the same angle. The metaphysical elements are rather more compelling in the context of Dark Tower material.Spoiler:
I loved it. Thanks anyway, though, for clarifying your point of view. Guess we're not going to agree at all on this one.
Hey, just wanted to hijack the thread, sorry in advance. I see that you guys like ranking things Stephen King-related. Nice, me too! That's why I set up a Short Story Battle Royale, featuring 128 Stephen King short stories, battling it out in four brackets until we get to a definitive winner! Please check my signature for the links, thank you! Carry on!
I'm probably a little harsh on it because so many people love it and I waited a long time to get my hands on another copy (mine got lost in a move years back) so I had a lot of expectations for it. And with how good it was in the beginning I was sad with where I ended up. If I'm harsh it's because I felt King dropped the ball on this one like he did with Under The Dome. With Under The Dome it was because he didn't do enough (even at that length) with the idea he had to work with. In Desperation's case he did way too much with it; sometimes less is more and in this case it would have worked better. Sometimes I give more scorn to a work of fiction if I feel a golden oppourtunity is missed. I like my books to be about something, which is why the ones at the top of my list are, and the bottom ones are.
Unrelated to that but, do I have to read The Talisman before Black House? Black House sounds damned good.
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you don't really have to, but I think you'll enjoy BH more after The Talisman (I mean, even more)
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What'd you think of my list Jean? Always enjoy hearing bears perspective on things.
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I can't object too much, because I know I was kind of asking for it. I realize it's an honest opinion; I respect that. It's just sort of funny that in general the ambiguity I like, you don't care for & the ambiguity you like, I don't care about.
Shannon: I am normally into those. Just been having a bit more trouble marshaling the energy. I'll try a bit harder when I get another chance. Thanks.
I totally agree that The Dark Tower is a single novel, and that rating collections as a whole doesn't seem quite correct. Other than this, our lists are almost completely different! Happy to see TGWLTG and Carrie so high on the list, and both Lisey's Story and The Eyes of the Dragon so low; but still can't get over your low ranking of Desperation, which is in my Top Five (as is Duma Key). By the way, I agree with most, if not all, of what you wrote in your big SPOILERS post; somehow none of this subtracts from the book for me. I think I got to re-read it and try to put together some thoughts.
Read It and Black House!!!!!!!!!!!
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You probably should read The Talisman first--it helps set the stage and introduce characters and backstory. However, in my opinion, Black House is much much better. I really didn't care for The Talisman much at all, but I loved Black House.
Couldn't disagree more with you on Desperation. Another very top-tier King for me. It's funny, that a vast majority of people believe in God. In the U.S. and much of the "western world," that God is the Christian God. Almost everyone I know goes to church, prays, believes in some sort of divine guidance or intervention. But you watch TV or go to a movie or read a book, and no one does any of this. Is there a TV show where it shows a family going to church on a Sunday morning? Anywhere? When's the last time people in a movie facing a difficult family situation or hardship actually prayed?
It would seem to me that a piece of fiction trying to connect with "normal America" would not be so reluctant introduce a God aspect, at least some of the time. I give King tons of credit for doing so in a couple of notable works. Of course, people like to shit all over it when he does. Heaven forbid that God, who is a major factor in so many people's lives, actually be a major factor in a novel.
I feel like if you're reading Black House and you never read The Talisman, it would make you feel like the information you don't have might possibly be more essential than it actually is. But that's just my impression, uncertain because I did happen to read The Talisman first.
Merlin, I have been reading. That's why Stebbins has been scarce around these parts the past week or so
Mattrick: Not a fan of your list but I respect your right to have your own taste. Thank you for sharing.
Update:
1 The Long Walk
1 The Stand
1 On Writing
1 Night Shift
1 Drawing of the Three
1 The Dark Tower
1 Wizard and Glass
8 Duma Key
9 Cell
10 The Gunslinger
11 The Waste Lands
12 The Shining
13 The Tommyknockers
14 Just After Sunset
15 IT
16 The Talisman
17 Everything’s Eventual
18. The Dead Zone
19 Salem's Lot
20 The Wind Through the Keyhole
21 The Colorado Kid
22 Four Past Midnight
23 Song of Susannah
24 Blockade Billy
25 Wolves of the Calla
26 The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon
27 Insomnia
haha yeah that's pretty funny.
Well my point was that it would have been more effective if left open. The moment thatSpoiler:I'm not opposed to any kind of God storylines (Frailty is one of my favourite movies) as long as they are done well. My issue with a literal (and built up) Deus Ex Machina is that eliminates human free will which is essential to any story.
As for your point on TV shows showing people going to church: The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, The Simpsons and Family Guy are shows that would regularily show their characters go to church. And as for praying, it has nothing to do with not showing realism, it has to do if that device fits story - most of the time praying in that situation in movies shows someone with no where else to go, often as a test of faith.
In Canada, God doesn't play much of a factor in our society...very little actually.
I figured Desperation would be the controversial one on my list. I tried to put it higher but I just couldn't as I placed them. TGWLTG is a favourite of mine - the only book of King's aside from The Dark Tower I've re-read multiple times.
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You mean something like ka? The literal manifestations of that built-up principle don't seem to have ruined that other story for you.
Because they are two entirely different things. None of the characters speak to God, there are no flashblacks directly related to how God will save the day, not to mentionYou mean something like ka? The literal manifestations of that built-up principle don't seem to have ruined that other story for you.Spoiler:
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So Deus Ex Machina is okay so long as the supernatural is ultimately bad and not good for the protagonists?
I have to disagree with this.Because they are two entirely different things. None of the characters speak to God, there are no flashblacks directly related to how God will save the day, not to mentionYou mean something like ka? The literal manifestations of that built-up principle don't seem to have ruined that other story for you.Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Hearts are tough, she said, most times hearts don't break, and I'm sure that's right . . . but what about then? What about who we were then? What about hearts in Atlantis?
So the fact King wrote an entire book about saving Patrick Danville was pointless?Spoiler:
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The question of mankind's free will is a pervasive theme throughout TDT. People who do not believe that we do have free will at all (of which there are actually many, theists and atheists) might not agree that it is essential to every drama. I am not so sure that Desperation conclusively dispenses with the concept, but now I am feeling the need for some re-reading, as well.
It would be great, IMO, if all of these issues were to eventually culminate in the opening of an exciting new thread.
And now you know why.OK!!! Who stole, Path's login ID and is posting as him????? No debate? LOL J/K my friend!!!You should try It. I like your taste, basically, apart from the inexplicably low estimate of Desperation. It's interesting perspective, in any case.
Last edited by pathoftheturtle; 02-20-2013 at 02:51 PM. Reason: determinism
Nice reason for editing, path haha.
The Dark Tower questions free will but it does exist.Spoiler:
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I'm glad you noticed. Not to be too patronizing, (I hope) just wanted to accurately represent the matter.
May as well just give up the ghost on this one, Path! IMHO
28 in 23 (?)!!!!
63 in '23!!!!!!!!!!
My Collection: https://www.thedarktower.org/palaver...ion-Merlin1958
The Houston Astros cheated Major League Baseball from 2017-18!!!! Is that how we teach our kids to play the game now?????
This discussion is for a different thread. Can't help saying right here, though, that Ka and Christian God being, as Mattrick observed, totally opposite (as far as human free will is concerned; also in terms of their own existence :bearwink: ), neither of them seems to me working as Deus ex machina in any of King books (I might be overlooking something, of course). [/offtop]So Deus Ex Machina is okay so long as the supernatural is ultimately bad and not good for the protagonists?
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It will be a great thread! Ka, Gan, Christian God... and at least Jewish God will hopefully turn up, too. Greek tragedians common. Should be in Cara Laughs, I think, not Mid-World. Jean and I need to re-read Desperation first; Mattrick, The Regulators and IT. (Yeah, that's right, italicized, capitalized, bolded, AND underlined!)
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