Osama Bin Laden is Dead!

[Merlin1958]

First off, the fact that they ended up having to kill Bin Laden more than likely was more Bin Laden's choice than the soldiers. I am absolutely certain that they had orders to get him alive if they possibly could. Imagine the press if they had been able to bring him to trial!!! No, I bet it was closer to "Suicide by Cop" that actually transpired.

I could've sworn that they went in with the intention of killing Bin Laden, but don't have anything to back that up. If you find an article or something, I'd be interested to know their exact intentions when the helicopters landed.

Nah, if they had got him alive they would've had a field day. Here's a paragraph from a NY times article "Behind the hunt for Bin Laden"

American officials insisted they would have taken Bin Laden into custody if he did not resist, although they considered that likelihood remote. “If we had the opportunity to take Bin Laden alive, if he didn’t present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that,” Mr. Brennan said.

Of course, Osama was a martyr and as such was likely to not let himself be taken alive. Had he, THAT would've been a major blow to Terrorists due to the whole "Suicide Martyrdom" thing they preach to these poor slobs.

[Merlin1958]

It saddens me that even in death bin Laden still has such a tight grip on so many people. They're clearly not happy he's dead if they're saying things like he deserved worse than he got.

No one here is any different, fundamentally, myself included--and I don't hate anyone here.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at in that statement, but it sounds like you're lumping folks here who are glad he is dead, in with death-mongers like Bin Laden. In that case, a big difference here is that noone here woke up and decided to take over 3,000 innocent lives.

Follow your "path" all you want. It's your right, remember that right is protected by the same folks who got Bin Laden. Choose your words carefully.

[Kidd Ikarus]

Amen.

[John_and_Yoko]

It saddens me that even in death bin Laden still has such a tight grip on so many people. They're clearly not happy he's dead if they're saying things like he deserved worse than he got.

No one here is any different, fundamentally, myself included--and I don't hate anyone here. What's different is experiences and choices. Only fear makes anyone think otherwise--fear that we might become like that ourselves. Ironically, it's the hatred that makes us that way.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at in that statement, but it sounds like you're lumping folks here who are glad he is dead, in with death-mongers like Bin Laden. In that case, a big difference here is that noone here woke up and decided to take over 3,000 innocent lives.

Follow your "path" all you want. It's your right, remember that right is protected by the same folks who got Bin Laden. Choose your words carefully.

I've added to my post, as you'll see.

If I'm "lumping", I'm lumping the entire human race in with death-mongers like bin Laden. I'm not excluding myself. Tell yourself otherwise all you want, but he was a human, inherently no different from you or me. In fact, you just said it: no one here woke up and DECIDED to take over 3,000 innocent lives. It was a DECISION, a CHOICE. Hence anyone here (myself included) COULD have chosen to do just that--but we didn't. If evil were truly stronger than good, as it would HAVE to be if ANYONE could forfeit their human rights, then any one of us could have (and probably WOULD have) forfeited our own human rights a long time ago, and then people would be killing US and celebrating OUR deaths and think they were right to do so. It's the hatred that's the true evil, not the killing--because it was the hatred that BRED the killing. So we can only truly be better if we DON'T hate. Hate the deeds, not the doer of the deeds--they're NOT identical.

I am trying to choose my words carefully, and if I fail I apologize--the problem is that when you think with a different paradigm than other people, they don't always understand you, and so they might think you're saying something you're not. And if you don't think with their paradigm you don't always know how to speak so they will understand. And whether it's true or not that my right is PROTECTED by the folks who got bin Laden, they didn't GIVE me that right--God did. And God hates NO ONE--only what they DO, and He knows the difference. And I wish everyone would remember THAT.

[Ricky]

Nah, if they had got him alive they would've had a field day. Here's a paragraph from a NY times article "Behind the hunt for Bin Laden"

American officials insisted they would have taken Bin Laden into custody if he did not resist, although they considered that likelihood remote. “If we had the opportunity to take Bin Laden alive, if he didn’t present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that,” Mr. Brennan said.

Of course, Osama was a martyr and as such was likely to not let himself be taken alive. Had he, THAT would've been a major blow to Terrorists due to the whole "Suicide Martyrdom" thing they preach to these poor slobs.

Thanks for the post, Merlin.

[OchrisO]

I have seen several analysts and authors well versed in the Middle East talking about Osama's death and what it will mean to the budding democracies and falling despots there. Most of them seem to think that as a whole, the Middle East doesn't really care that much about al-Qaeda or bin Laden. The majority of people in the Middle East are far more interested in toppling their abusive rulers or bringing democracy to fruition in their countries. I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

[John_and_Yoko]

I have seen several analysts and authors well versed in the Middle East talking about Osama's death and what it will mean to the budding democracies and falling despots there. Most of them seem to think that as a whole, the Middle East doesn't really care that much about al-Qaeda or bin Laden. The majority of people in the Middle East are far more interested in toppling their abusive rulers or bring democracy to fruition in their countries. I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

I concur--I hope you're right that most people in the Middle East want that, and while it's unlikely that ALL the people in our country will stop thinking that way, with any hope MOST of them will.

[Merlin1958]

I have seen several analysts and authors well versed in the Middle East talking about Osama's death and what it will mean to the budding democracies and falling despots there. Most of them seem to think that as a whole, the Middle East doesn't really care that much about al-Qaeda or bin Laden. The majority of people in the Middle East are far more interested in toppling their abusive rulers or bring democracy to fruition in their countries. I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

I concur--I hope you're right that most people in the Middle East want that, and while it's unlikely that ALL the people in our country will stop thinking that way, with any hope MOST of them will.

John & Yoko, can I ask you a question?

Is it lonely being the only enlightened, right thinking person in the world?

I have no problem with you sharing your thoughts and opinions, what ever they may be, just like eveyone else, but do you have to constantly preach about what you see as the failings of others? Cause whether or not that is your intent, it sure as heck comes across that way.

[Odetta]

I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

Don't hold your breath... my sister in law made a comment about if the 7-11 will be closed for a period of mourning how will she get her coffee? Made me want to punch her.

[John_and_Yoko]

John & Yoko, can I ask you a question?

Is it lonely being the only enlightened, right thinking person in the world?

I have no problem with you sharing your thoughts and opinions, what ever they may be, just like eveyone else, but do you have to constantly preach about what you see as the failings of others? Cause whether or not that is your intent, it sure as heck comes across that way.

Yes. Yes it is.

Seriously, in the first place this thread has already proved that I'm NOT the only one who thinks as I do (and thank God I'm not). I'm sorry if I come across that way but I'm not trying to--I am indeed glad that people care about the sufferings of the innocent victims of 9/11 and other terrorist acts, but it's easy to care about that, and it's also easy for that to translate into hatred of the perpetrators. Anyway, I'm trying to be optimistic that at least some people will come around and think of it differently.

Trust me, I used to think of a LOT of things differently, and I've already aired some of my own dirty laundry in this very thread. As I already said, I'm no different from anyone else. Hence anyone else could choose to have an open mind and see the difference between hating the ruthless slaughter of innocent people and hating those who did it--the fact that so many are choosing not to NOW doesn't mean they can't CHANGE. That's the whole point of what I'm trying to say. Why is everyone so afraid to identify with those who commit terrible deeds? It is that fear that fuels the hatred--if we see terrorists as "Other" then there's no danger that WE might be capable of the same thing. But if we see them as like ourselves, that's scary. But why should it have to be? Why can't we rise above that?

[Merlin1958]

Well, I see what you're trying to say, but you have to remember that we are all human's (well maybe not Bin Laden) and as such are inherently flawed. No one is perfect and no matter how hard we try no one ever will be. Take that to the bank.

Sure, we can aspire to perfection, but it ain't gonna happen. Additionally, when you're dealing with something this hienous, this horrible and this senseless it's a bit, almost unfair, unrealistic to think that folks are gonna start here. I lost people I knew and dealt with. Hell, any other day and I coulda been there myself. My brother was NYPD and a responder. Until you have to deal with something like that first hand, you can't even begin to understand the range of human emotions that kick in. I, for one, uprooted my family, from a place I grew up in and lived happily for some 45 odd years and moved 3,000 miles away largely because of that incident.

Maybe this just ain't the thread to get into that discussion in? Use some of that "Enlightened Consciousness" to cut the folks that are still hurting from that act 10 years ago a little slack. What do you think?

[OchrisO]

I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

Don't hold your breath... my sister in law made a comment about if the 7-11 will be closed for a period of mourning how will she get her coffee? Made me want to punch her.

Hah. Aren't 7-11s generally the stereotypical domain of Indian people? She could at least get her racism right.

[John_and_Yoko]

Well, I see what you're trying to say, but you have to remember that we are all human's (well maybe not Bin Laden) and as such are inherently flawed. No one is perfect and no matter how hard we try no one ever will be. Take that to the bank.

Sure, we can aspire to perfection, but it ain't gonna happen. Additionally, when you're dealing with something this hienous, this horrible and this senseless it's a bit, almost unfair, unrealistic to think that folks are gonna start here. I lost people I knew and dealt with. Hell, any other day and I coulda been there myself. My brother was NYPD and a responder. Until you have to deal with something like that first hand, you can't even begin to understand the range of human emotions that kick in. I, for one, uprooted my family, from a place I grew up in and lived happily for some 45 odd years and moved 3,000 miles away largely because of that incident.

Maybe this just ain't the thread to get into that discussion in? Use some of that "Enlightened Consciousness" to cut the folks that are still hurting from that act 10 years ago a little slack. What do you think?

If you hadn't said "well, maybe not Bin Laden", that first paragraph would have been exactly right, and I agree with the rest of it. I'm not perfect myself, nor do I pretend to be--but at the same time that's no excuse for not trying to be better. No one can be perfect, but EVERYONE can be BETTER. And so what gives any of us the right to decide what the threshold is for when someone can no longer be considered human? We don't--none of us do. If you're willing to concede that no one is perfect, how does calling Bin Laden inhuman mesh with that idea?

We'll never achieve perfection on our own, no, but if we strive for it we won't fall as short of the mark. I'm aware that it's hard, and I don't expect people to change overnight--but it's precisely because it IS so heinous that it's important not to let it get to us that deeply. I'm sorry for your losses, and I don't know what it would be like to lose someone in that way myself, although I have lost two grandparents to death already (not the result of criminal activity, thank God). In fact, I want to address that to everyone here: I am sorry for anyone who lost loved ones in 9/11, and I sincerely hope they find the strength to get past the hurt and go on. But that won't happen if we allow ourselves to hate--that prevents us from ever getting past it.

If I forget the fact that many (if not most) who express such sentiment have lost people in 9/11, that's my own imperfection right there, and I apologize. And as I say, I sincerely hope they can find the strength to get past it and continue with their lives. But I will never be convinced that another death, even that of bin Laden, is any reason to celebrate, and I will feel sorry for anyone who thinks otherwise. I'm sorry for anyone who doesn't want to listen to the truth because of emotional hurt. But I still hope that they can realize the truth and thereby overcome their negative feelings.

[Merlin1958]

Well, I see what you're trying to say, but you have to remember that we are all human's (well maybe not Bin Laden) and as such are inherently flawed. No one is perfect and no matter how hard we try no one ever will be. Take that to the bank.

Sure, we can aspire to perfection, but it ain't gonna happen. Additionally, when you're dealing with something this hienous, this horrible and this senseless it's a bit, almost unfair, unrealistic to think that folks are gonna start here. I lost people I knew and dealt with. Hell, any other day and I coulda been there myself. My brother was NYPD and a responder. Until you have to deal with something like that first hand, you can't even begin to understand the range of human emotions that kick in. I, for one, uprooted my family, from a place I grew up in and lived happily for some 45 odd years and moved 3,000 miles away largely because of that incident.

Maybe this just ain't the thread to get into that discussion in? Use some of that "Enlightened Consciousness" to cut the folks that are still hurting from that act 10 years ago a little slack. What do you think?

If you hadn't said "well, maybe not Bin Laden", that first paragraph would have been exactly right, and I agree with the rest of it. I'm not perfect myself, nor do I pretend to be--but at the same time that's no excuse for not trying to be better. No one can be perfect, but EVERYONE can be BETTER. And so what gives any of us the right to decide what the threshold is for when someone can no longer be considered human? We don't--none of us do. If you're willing to concede that no one is perfect, how does calling Bin Laden inhuman mesh with that idea?

We'll never achieve perfection on our own, no, but if we strive for it we won't fall as short of the mark. I'm aware that it's hard, and I don't expect people to change overnight--but it's precisely because it IS so heinous that it's important not to let it get to us that deeply. I'm sorry for your losses, and I don't know what it would be like to lose someone in that way myself, although I have lost two grandparents to death already (not the result of criminal activity, thank God). In fact, I want to address that to everyone here: I am sorry for anyone who lost loved ones in 9/11, and I sincerely hope they find the strength to get past the hurt and go on. But that won't happen if we allow ourselves to hate--that prevents us from ever getting past it.

If I forget the fact that many (if not most) who express such sentiment have lost people in 9/11, that's my own imperfection right there, and I apologize. And as I say, I sincerely hope they can find the strength to get past it and continue with their lives. But I will never be convinced that another death, even that of bin Laden, is any reason to celebrate, and I will feel sorry for anyone who thinks otherwise. I'm sorry for anyone who doesn't want to listen to the truth because of emotional hurt. But I still hope that they can realize the truth and thereby overcome their negative feelings.

OK, well as I said you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

And with that, I am outta here before I say something I will regret later. However, I am not going to apologize, or try to apologize for the fact that I am very happy that the U.S. government made good on their promise to meet out justice with regard to the 9/11 attacks and "get" the people responsible. Wanting and advocating that kind of senseless destruction on innocent people, for any cause, defies any definition of "Humanity" as we know and accept it.

Take care folks!!!

[John_and_Yoko]

OK, well as I said you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

And with that, I am outta here before I say something I will regret later. However, I am not going to apologize, or try to apologize for the fact that I am very happy that the U.S. government made good on their promise to meet out justice with regard to the 9/11 attacks and "get" the people responsible. Wanting and advocating that kind of senseless destruction on innocent people, for any cause, defies any definition of "Humanity" as we know and accept it.

Take care folks!!!

As you are to yours.

I appreciate you not saying something you'll regret, and I'm glad this didn't degenerate into an argument. I'm still sorry you see that as "justice", but I can't change your mind. I'm not going to apologize for my own opinion or for having professed it either, and I appreciate that no one has tried to get me to change my mind.

EDIT: And thank you very much for that PM!

[Brice]

I'll hold back for the most part on my opinions here (for lack of time more than anything). Besides J+Y's opinions are relatively close to mine on the subject.

[Girlystevedave]

I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

Yeah, I wish. Call me cynical or pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure the world will cease to exist before people stop hating other religious groups who share views opposite of their own. Unfortunately.

[John_and_Yoko]

Here's a link to another angle that I hadn't even considered. I don't agree completely with the author, but it's yet another good point to acknowledge that I wish I'd thought of:

http://www.alternet.org/world/150808

[Sir_Boomme]

I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

Don't hold your breath... my sister in law made a comment about if the 7-11 will be closed for a period of mourning how will she get her coffee? Made me want to punch her.

now... THAT... made me chuckle just a bit...

[Sir_Boomme]

I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

Don't hold your breath... my sister in law made a comment about if the 7-11 will be closed for a period of mourning how will she get her coffee? Made me want to punch her.

Hah. Aren't 7-11s generally the stereotypical domain of Indian people? She could at least get her racism right.

and don't worry, before I'm labeled a racist.... I chuckle at "white guys have short weiner jokes" too.

[LadyHitchhiker]

It's funny how I get most of my newsworthy news from here...

[Odetta]

I think that this is a great thing to hear and maybe, if we are really lucky, it will break through to all of the people in our country that seem to think that all brown people or all Muslims are terrorists.

Don't hold your breath... my sister in law made a comment about if the 7-11 will be closed for a period of mourning how will she get her coffee? Made me want to punch her.

Hah. Aren't 7-11s generally the stereotypical domain of Indian people? She could at least get her racism right.

Maybe I should've said that. She's an idiot.

[fernandito]

Yeah, and then you should have b*tch slapped her.

[LadyHitchhiker]

So I went into my mom's room and told her the other morning, "Mom, Osama Bin laden's dead."

It takes my mom a little while to wake up and be fully functional in the morning.

So she looks at me funny and says, "Do I know him? Does he go to our church?"



I love my mom!!!!!!!!

[pixiedark76]

Killing was to good for him. He should have been captured and put in prison. where he could be tortured.

Actually he should have been captured and brought to the families of victims of 9/11 and tortured. Especially by the children whose parents died before they were born. Because of Bin Laden, they never got to meet or see their parents.

(Would torturing Bin Laden make things better? End world terrorism? No.)

BUT one thing I learned in life, WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!

Another lesson I learned : PAYBACK IS A BITCH!

Bin Laden needed to be paid back for all the pain and suffering he brought down on people. Not only in the US. but in the Middle East as well. He made a mockery of Islam. He twisted the ideals and used Islam to his own advantage. Because of him Muslims got the stereotype of being terrorists. Bin Laden caused a lot of hatred and unnecessary prejudiced concerning the Muslims.