Osama Bin Laden is Dead!

[John_and_Yoko]

Really belongs in the other thread, but....

It sounds to me like you're thinking of God as though He were a human being. If God created, then only God has the authority to destroy His own creation--UNLESS He specifically grants that authority to creatures. And you'll notice that man sinned FIRST. Sin leads to death. God had to make sure those in covenant with Him understood that--BEFORE He reconciled humanity to Himself in the Sacrifice on the Cross. That changed everything. Again, God didn't change, our relationship with Him did.

No. That's impossible. God doesn't kill because He ENJOYS it--quite the contrary. Does He ever express JOY in killing human beings? And you just said it yourself--you're comparing God to human beings. God is NOT a human being. God is not A being at all. God IS being itself.

This is why I didn't know you'd read the Bible. Jesus IS God, first of all, and second of all, He said "I come not to destroy, but to fulfill." He came to give the definitive understanding of the Torah, and He did. He was simply saying that MAN had gotten caught up in, "Okay, it's this day so we have to do this thing this way at this time, otherwise we'll be an affront to God", and Jesus is saying no, the reasoning behind those rules is love of God and neighbor (which is IN the Old Testament).

You've read Genesis, right? Then you should know that the Mosaic covenant was NOT the "original" covenant. One was made with Noah after the Flood, and another was made with Abraham. And if man is imperfect, how is making the covenant perfect right from the start going to do any good? Imperfection can't comprehend that. Remember, in those days people practiced human SACRIFICES and had a lot of illicit sex and worshiped nature. It takes a long time for people to get out of those habits and take on new ones--and God has all the time in the universe. The Bible isn't even a document, it's a collection of books, and over time they perfect our knowledge of God.

But Professor Pakaluk completely missed the point of Christ's Sacrifice. His Sacrifice (which He went to of His own free will, remember) was precisely so that we could LIVE, so that the death penalty would become OBSOLETE. He took away the sins of the WORLD, not just of SOME people.

If you want to continue this, can we please move it to the religious discussion thread?

[Sir_Boomme]

Really belongs in the other thread, but....

It sounds to me like you're thinking of God as though He were a human being. If God created, then only God has the authority to destroy His own creation--UNLESS He specifically grants that authority to creatures. And you'll notice that man sinned FIRST. Sin leads to death. God had to make sure those in covenant with Him understood that--BEFORE He reconciled humanity to Himself in the Sacrifice on the Cross. That changed everything. Again, God didn't change, our relationship with Him did.

No. That's impossible. God doesn't kill because He ENJOYS it--quite the contrary. Does He ever express JOY in killing human beings? And you just said it yourself--you're comparing God to human beings. God is NOT a human being. God is not A being at all. God IS being itself.

This is why I didn't know you'd read the Bible. Jesus IS God, first of all, and second of all, He said "I come not to destroy, but to fulfill." He came to give the definitive understanding of the Torah, and He did. He was simply saying that MAN had gotten caught up in, "Okay, it's this day so we have to do this thing this way at this time, otherwise we'll be an affront to God", and Jesus is saying no, the reasoning behind those rules is love of God and neighbor (which is IN the Old Testament).

You've read Genesis, right? Then you should know that the Mosaic covenant was NOT the "original" covenant. One was made with Noah after the Flood, and another was made with Abraham. And if man is imperfect, how is making the covenant perfect right from the start going to do any good? Imperfection can't comprehend that. Remember, in those days people practiced human SACRIFICES and had a lot of illicit sex and worshiped nature. It takes a long time for people to get out of those habits and take on new ones--and God has all the time in the universe. The Bible isn't even a document, it's a collection of books, and over time they perfect our knowledge of God.

But Professor Pakaluk completely missed the point of Christ's Sacrifice. His Sacrifice (which He went to of His own free will, remember) was precisely so that we could LIVE, so that the death penalty would become OBSOLETE. He took away the sins of the WORLD, not just of SOME people.

If you want to continue this, can we please move it to the religious discussion thread?

sure... repost this later in the other thread and I'd love to respond there for sure.... got to move on with my day and get some yard work done right now...

i don't think it's to far off topic here since we were discussing right or wrong of the killing of bin laden... and that's what I'm trying to specifically reference... but you're correct that it's going to be way to easy to expand and stray from that narrow topic when using any religious/faith examples.
I look forward to more discussion/debate on it as time allows.
take care and have a great day.

[John_and_Yoko]

sure... repost this later in the other thread and I'd love to respond there for sure.... got to move on with my day and get some yard work done right now...

i don't think it's to far off topic here since we were discussing right or wrong of the kill of
bin laden... and that's what I'm trying to specifically reference... but you're correct that it's going to be way to easy to expand and stray from that narrow topic when using any religious/faith examples.
I look forward to more discussion/debate on it as time allows.
take care and have a great day.

Okay, will do. Good luck with your yard work.

I think it STARTED on topic and got off. You can reference that tangentially in the other thread, as we can reference God and religion tangentially here. *nods* Glad we agree.

So do I! Thanks, you too!

[Brice]

the cost of bin laden...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclus...-over-15-years

and that's not counting the lives lost...

sorry, It still just confounds me that anyone could think paying a single dollar more to house him, and suggesting to reform him would have been a better option.

and I'm amazed that anyone could not celebrate his demise.

it's like alien thought patterns to me... I'll never understand that point of view...it's simply beyond my realm of reasoning... and my ability to forgive. can't do it.

I cannot celebrate his demise because I can't celebrate anyone's. Death even if "neccessary" doesn't seem to me to be something to celebrate. There was a time I could, but I find no joy there anymore. Every life is equal to me.

[OchrisO]

Okay, I think you just said it right there: "enlightened". What exactly is it that you consider me to be in the dark about? That's not rhetorical, I'd like to know how you would answer. Because I acknowledge that bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of many innocent people, and I acknowledge that this is an atrocious act that causes intense pain and suffering for the living. I'm not in the dark on either of those matters.

I just find it hard to reconcile the word "enlightened" with your lack of desire to have that much capacity for forgiveness. Forgiveness is a WEAPON--it's the only effective weapon against evil and violence because it's the only thing evil can't understand and doesn't like. Violence and killing are things evil CAN understand and DOES like. What if YOU were guilty of what bin Laden did? Would you really NOT want to forgive YOURSELF? Or to be forgiven by others? Would you resign yourself to the idea that you had forfeited your OWN human rights and that YOU deserved to die? Would you try to make that happen as soon as possible, to prevent yourself from doing more evil, by taking your own life? I sincerely hope not.

And by the way, "an eye for an eye" is from the Bible, specifically the OLD Testament, and it's meant to condemn EXCESSIVE punishment for wrongs: "ONE eye for ONE eye."

This is, of course, way off topic, but I can't make myself avoid commenting on it.
Eye for an Eye was around long before the Bible. It was first found in The Code of Hammurabi from around 1700BC, one of the oldest written documents of significant length in the world. Among many other things, it says, "If a man puts out the eye of an equal, his eye shall be put out. If a man knocks the teeth out of another man, his own teeth will be knocked out. "It contains 282 laws. When it appears in the Bible, it is only referencing Hammurabi, who was a Babylonian king. The Abrahamic tradition was thought to be speaking of a monetary analogy, but the older Code of Hammurabi was literal.

[Brice]

Okay, I think you just said it right there: "enlightened". What exactly is it that you consider me to be in the dark about? That's not rhetorical, I'd like to know how you would answer. Because I acknowledge that bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of many innocent people, and I acknowledge that this is an atrocious act that causes intense pain and suffering for the living. I'm not in the dark on either of those matters.

I just find it hard to reconcile the word "enlightened" with your lack of desire to have that much capacity for forgiveness. Forgiveness is a WEAPON--it's the only effective weapon against evil and violence because it's the only thing evil can't understand and doesn't like. Violence and killing are things evil CAN understand and DOES like. What if YOU were guilty of what bin Laden did? Would you really NOT want to forgive YOURSELF? Or to be forgiven by others? Would you resign yourself to the idea that you had forfeited your OWN human rights and that YOU deserved to die? Would you try to make that happen as soon as possible, to prevent yourself from doing more evil, by taking your own life? I sincerely hope not.

And by the way, "an eye for an eye" is from the Bible, specifically the OLD Testament, and it's meant to condemn EXCESSIVE punishment for wrongs: "ONE eye for ONE eye."

This is, of course, way off topic, but I can't make myself avoid commenting on it.
Eye for an Eye was around long before the Bible. It was first found in The Code of Hammurabi from around 1700BC, one of the oldest written documents of significant length in the world. Among many other things, it says, "If a man puts out the eye of an equal, his eye shall be put out. If a man knocks the teeth out of another man, his own teeth will be knocked out. "It contains 282 laws. When it appears in the Bible, it is only referencing Hammurabi, who was a Babylonian king. The Abrahamic tradition was thought to be speaking of a monetary analogy, but the older Code of Hammurabi was literal.

So, then god is guilty of plagiarism?

[OchrisO]

Okay, I think you just said it right there: "enlightened". What exactly is it that you consider me to be in the dark about? That's not rhetorical, I'd like to know how you would answer. Because I acknowledge that bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of many innocent people, and I acknowledge that this is an atrocious act that causes intense pain and suffering for the living. I'm not in the dark on either of those matters.

I just find it hard to reconcile the word "enlightened" with your lack of desire to have that much capacity for forgiveness. Forgiveness is a WEAPON--it's the only effective weapon against evil and violence because it's the only thing evil can't understand and doesn't like. Violence and killing are things evil CAN understand and DOES like. What if YOU were guilty of what bin Laden did? Would you really NOT want to forgive YOURSELF? Or to be forgiven by others? Would you resign yourself to the idea that you had forfeited your OWN human rights and that YOU deserved to die? Would you try to make that happen as soon as possible, to prevent yourself from doing more evil, by taking your own life? I sincerely hope not.

And by the way, "an eye for an eye" is from the Bible, specifically the OLD Testament, and it's meant to condemn EXCESSIVE punishment for wrongs: "ONE eye for ONE eye."

This is, of course, way off topic, but I can't make myself avoid commenting on it.
Eye for an Eye was around long before the Bible. It was first found in The Code of Hammurabi from around 1700BC, one of the oldest written documents of significant length in the world. Among many other things, it says, "If a man puts out the eye of an equal, his eye shall be put out. If a man knocks the teeth out of another man, his own teeth will be knocked out. "It contains 282 laws. When it appears in the Bible, it is only referencing Hammurabi, who was a Babylonian king. The Abrahamic tradition was thought to be speaking of a monetary analogy, but the older Code of Hammurabi was literal.

So, then god is guilty of plagiarism?

One of his incest babies was at the very least.

[Brice]

[John_and_Yoko]

Back on-topic, okay?

[OchrisO]

nah

[Ben Staad]

nah

[Jean]

::cough cough::

if you want to discuss religion, there is a special thread in this very section

[Brice]

Jean is the purpose tomy randomness...the order to my chaos. The yin to my yang...damn that sounds naughty.

[Jean]

see how long you haven't been here? people and bears might begin to treat you like an average human being

[Brice]

bears could NEVER!

[Jean]

no... on second thought, they couldn't... they only wanted you to fully realize the possible, and even the impossible, consequences of being gone

(see? you're at it again! you've dragged a bear into an off-topic conversation!!!)

[Brice]

Mwahahahaha!

[DoctorDodge]

Right, to get things back on topic, let us not forget the one man we should thank for this: Bruce Willis!

[LadyHitchhiker]

Bruce Willis is always relevant.

[OchrisO]

[ /thread]

[LadyHitchhiker]

Hmmm.. but I'm confused, because facebook is saying the Chuck Norris went on vacation in pakistan and that's how we ended up without Bin Laden...

[Merlin1958]

Wierdly, that Willis' scene popped in my mind when I first heard the news!!!!!


Here's a good one, I'm sure the majority of you have seen.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/snl-...ill-testament/

[Cook]

Wierdly, that Willis' scene popped in my mind when I first heard the news!!!!!


Here's a good one, I'm sure the majority of you have seen.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/snl-...ill-testament/

Watched it last night recorded on the DVR.
Actually pretty funny, sometimes you never know what you'll get on SNL.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I keep forgetting this happened! Thank you tdt.org for reminding me! You help keep me relevant!