The Dark Tower Q&A - Ask a question, get an answer! *spoilers*

[lydiapurple999]

I just finished the series but I think I missed something. I am not clear on who the hurt boy was that Sheemie, Susannah and others dreamed about. It didn't seem that it was Patrick Danville or Mordred?

[RainInSpain]

The hurt boy was a personification of the Beam that the breakers were breaking/hurting. It was after seeing him in their (and Sheemie's) dreams that the ka-tet understood that they should help the Beam first by ambushing Algul Siento and stopping what the breakers have been doing, and only then go and save sai King.

[Letti]

RaininSpain is right. It was the Beam.
When Sheemie was telling his dream to the ka-tet I had no idea who that boy was. Later when they all talked about it again I realised (because someone from the ka-tet said it, maybe Susannah) that it was one of the remaining Beams. The one the Breakers had been destroying for long.

[wganz]

Glad to find this. Makes it easier to have this engraved on some of my toys.

[Erin]

I've been talking books with co-workers today and of course, The Dark Tower came up. This was something that was mentioned in our discussion. Spoilers if you have not completed the series (or not read the Coda)

Spoiler:

My co-worker stated that he thinks each book in the series took place in a different time-cycle. This totally blew my mind. I don't know why I've never even considered that before. I just automatically assumed it was one long cycle and never thought elsewise.

My question is, do we have a thread or a part of a thread discussing this possibility? I've been lax in reading through and discussing in this section of the site in the past year (which I hope to change soon with a planned re-read!) and don't see anything off the bat.

[Jean]

wow

no, I don't think it has ever been brought up. Not even at .net.

[Erin]

I think it's an interesting idea and worth checking out. When I start my re-read this winter, I'm going to approach it from that mind-set and see if I can find any clues that might hint one way or the other. I'll be sure to start a thread if I find anything.

[pathoftheturtle]

Is that like this theory? --

Spoiler:

"Given that, after the ending of the series with Roland reaching the top of the Tower and being put back at the 'start' of his journey (at least where we join him ). Yet this time he 'remembers pausing to pick up the horn', meaning he now has something that he didn't before while on his journey.

My theory is this: The telling of the story (through the seven odd books) doesn't tell of just one of his (Rolands) journeys, but several different ones, as he reaches the tower and is sent back, but with a new tool/item/knowledge that he didn't have to allow him to actually complete his quest. Since the 'past' would then have changed, it is reasonable to think that his gear could also change not only from quest to quest, but from book to book. (IE The Gunslinger would be one quest where he reached the tower but was sent back with a new item/upgraded item, the Drawing would be another, etc. etc.)

This would allow for the gun to be first a single action, and then 'upgraded' to a double action for a small ease on his journey. Same with his finding his companions. Perhaps in one journey he did it all alone, but he wasn't meant to, because his friends (Susannah, Eddie, Jake, Oy, Callahan, etc. etc.) were needed for their own parts (forming Tet Corp (as Roland wouldn't even begin to think of doing that), protecting the Rose, giving birth to Mordred, stopping Blane with illogic, etc. etc.)"

[Kylefornacation]

What do you think the number 19 has to do with the book? Was that his 19th time on the journey? what do you think? Im just curious to see people opinions.

Ive searched the forums for a few hours and see nothing regarding the number.

[jhanic]

Which book are you talking about?

John

[Kylefornacation]

Dark Tower series...
its referenced many many times. But ive talked to a few others and we all have differrent theroies on what it could be.

[pathoftheturtle]

I think just that a lot of older people became conscious of change with the turn of the millennium. We were really in the habit of years starting with 19. That's a factor of it which was alluded to specifically in TDT.

[Merlin1958]

probably should have "Spoiler" in the title of this thread.

With regard to the books:

Spoiler:

Personally, I subscribe to the "19th Loop" theory with regard to the significance of "19" in the books.

Practically speaking, I think King latched onto "19" because that was when he first started seriously writing as evidenced in his forwards in the books.

[pathoftheturtle]

Eh, but how exactly is "seriously" writing defined? Nobody calls you on the phone simply to let you know it on the precise day when your writing has turned from plain to serious, you know. Isn't that maybe nothing but a case of looking back and just seeing the thing he looked for?

And as for the theory which you tagged there, I must beg to differ. Never made much sense to me.

Spoiler:

19 turns up everywhere in the latter books. If that happened because it were Roland's nineteenth time, then it's all completely crazy. On the first loop, did everyone they met "coincidentally" have full names just 1 letter long?

Also, I don't like at all the way SK put 19 into the revised DT I. It is less believable to me that Roland still doesn't care about it when it appears after hearing the prophesy that it will mean a lot to him personally than it did when I only knew the original edition.

[Jean]

probably should have "Spoiler" in the title of this thread.

True! and done.

I've been procrastinating, waiting for this section's mods to move/merge this thread; there's been a number of similar discussions around

[Brainslinger]

Also, I don't like at all the way SK put 19 into the revised DT I. It is less believable to me that Roland still doesn't care about it when it appears after hearing the prophesy that it will mean a lot to him personally than it did when I only knew the original edition.

While I found that added section of the book interesting and intriguing, I wasn't keen on that contradiction either. I guess it could be argued that a lot had happened to Roland by the time it turns up again, and Roland is a very practical in the moment character*. He didn't understand it so he disregarded it, or at least put it to the back of his mind.

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure I buy that either.

I do wonder if King had continued with his original plan to revise books 2-4 as well, if he would pepper more 19 references throughout them. I also wonder if we'll find out in The Wind Through the Keyhole, exactly when Susannah, Eddie and Jake started noticing and became obsessed with the number 19.

As for what it actually means... I suppose we have an answer of sorts in the books, it being part of an important date in the Keystone world. (Covering the entire 20th century is pretty broad though, but not so much when you consider the entirety of the timeline, I suppose.) I'm sure there's more to it than that, but I think that will remain speculative. Not a bad thing.

I do wonder what Nort told Allie when she spoke the number wishing to unlock the truth of what lies beyond death. Could he have told her the truth of her life instead? (Which is really what she was after I think, her reason for being. That her life in that place had worth and meaning.)

Spoiler:

I wonder if she discovered the same thing as Pere Callahan, when he found a certain book on a certain shelf. He obviously took it far better than her.

*When he isn't narrating his childhood and riding in pink balls. Oo-er.

[Merlin1958]

probably should have "Spoiler" in the title of this thread.

True! and done.

I've been procrastinating, waiting for this section's mods to move/merge this thread; there's been a number of similar discussions around

Not to be a picky PITA, but since it's in the "Gilead" forum should it refer to "TDT Spoilers"? Sorry jean, I realize you have already gone above and beyond.

[Merlin1958]

I think the "19th Loop" is artistic license not to be taken literally. Naturally, upon reflection he ID'ed "19" as a significant number relative to his career. Perhaps the 19-type references were extremely subtle in early loop's and got progressively more obvious as the loops progressed.

[divemaster]

Isn't there a passage somewhere where Roland tells the others that "19 is a number with power"? Maybe it just is. I mean, in our world 7 is considered lucky, 13 is unlucky, and 666 is the number of the Beast. No real reason for all that, just the way things are. Couldn't it be the same for 19?

I would never associate it with "trips through the tower" b/c I can't buy that every trip would then have to have a different magic number.

[Jean]

probably should have "Spoiler" in the title of this thread.

True! and done.

I've been procrastinating, waiting for this section's mods to move/merge this thread; there's been a number of similar discussions around

Not to be a picky PITA, but since it's in the "Gilead" forum should it refer to "TDT Spoilers"? Sorry jean, I realize you have already gone above and beyond.

I am looking into it - it's not my section, and I am afraid to do something wrong. I think in this section, if we put spoiler warning in the title, it automatically means TDT spoilers; I'll do some more research.

[pathoftheturtle]

Also, I don't like at all the way SK put 19 into the revised DT I. It is less believable to me that Roland still doesn't care about it when it appears after hearing the prophesy that it will mean a lot to him personally than it did when I only knew the original edition.

While I found that added section of the book interesting and intriguing, I wasn't keen on that contradiction either. I guess it could be argued that a lot had happened to Roland by the time it turns up again, and Roland is a very practical in the moment character*. He didn't understand it so he disregarded it, or at least put it to the back of his mind.

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure I buy that either.

Mmm-hmm. *smirks*

*When he isn't narrating his childhood and riding in pink balls. Oo-er.

Exactly, lol. That claim has so many exceptions that it's pretty meaningless.

I do wonder if King had continued with his original plan to revise books 2-4 as well, if he would pepper more 19 references throughout them.

Doubtful. He also added to the Oracle's speech "...Three is the number of your fate. Another number comes later. ..." Basically, I think it would have been cooler if SK had stuck with 3 throughout the whole series.

I think the "19th Loop" is artistic license not to be taken literally. ...

But it's only a fan theory. That idea wasn't mentioned anywhere in the books or ever discussed to my knowledge by SK, the actual artist. People don't really qualify for artistic license just because they READ a creative work, IMO.

... in our world 7 is considered lucky, 13 is unlucky, and 666 is the number of the Beast. No real reason for all that, just the way things are. ...

Well, justifications did exist for the origins of those, actually, if you care to research them. Not sure it's relevant, though. SK once took a pretty dismissive attitude towards numerology in The Stand. I think the key point is that the number is important to SK himself -- once he appears as a character, distinctions between our questions as readers about why the author chose to include it and what the internal justification is in terms of the science of the fictional multiverse become very blurry. How metaphysics inside the universe of TDT work includes artistic decisions made by writers, or at least those made by Stephen King.

[Merlin1958]

Path, I hear what you're saying, but by the same token it has always been my opinion that he intentionally inserted the "19" question/quandry specifically to charge the readers with theories and discussion purely for the purpose of sparking debate. So, if that is the case, then even if he has a "pet" theory in a way even he couldn't put his above any other. Especially if the significance of 19 is truly personal and relates primarily to a stage in his life "On being 19" I believe as he states in several forwards to the books. Just my 3 beans.

[pathoftheturtle]

Yeah, that's cool. We can agree to disagree. Anyhow, I enjoy this debate.

[Merlin1958]

Yeah, that's cool. We can agree to disagree. Anyhow, I enjoy this debate.

Me too!! But yeah, I guess we're at a point where we can go on forever. Great debate though!!!! You're a more than worthy opponent!!!! LOL

[Darkthoughts]

I've renamed the thread to make it self explanatory and generate more discussion