Lord of the Rings

[Spencer]

Thank you Brian. I REALLY need to reread the books sometime soon.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Greetings Tolkien fans (and the the not-so-much crowd, too).

I'm one of the magical Tet of the 12, as I read the Hobbit and Trilogy at that age, too. I've read them every summer since then, with the exception of this summer when I was reading the Wolves and then Song of Susannah. So I have read the Tolkien books 21 times. I read them in book form for most of those, but have found that audio is simply easier for me to deal with, as I can listen while relaxing, or strolling, and so on.

My favorite aspects of the Tolkien books is Gandalf and the White Council. I have carried on debates (largely in newsgroups) about Gandalf and his wizarding ways. I usually talk about Gandalf as a character with a foreknowledge of the War of the Ring, and everything leading to it. As the Unfinished tales says, he was worried about the lack of arms in the North, and encouraged Thorin and his band to re-take Erebor and their "rightful kingdom".

I have also contended he knew in advance he would perish in Middle-Earth, though he might not have know the exact where and when until he entered Moria. Then he arose much greater than before and no longer had to wear the mantle of a mere wizard.

As far as the movies go, I liked parts and disliked parts. The one scene I would have liked to have seen was the face-off between Gandalf and the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith. That scene seemed like something out of a Gunslinger showdown, and though it never came to an actual throw down, there was an underlying battle of power and will there.

[obscurejude]

I, too feel your disgust R of G.

[jayson]

Thanks Jude.

BTW all, today is January 3rd and is the birthdate of JRR Tolkien, born on this date in 1892.

[jayson]

Greetings Tolkien fans (and the the not-so-much crowd, too).

I'm one of the magical Tet of the 12, as I read the Hobbit and Trilogy at that age, too. I've read them every summer since then, with the exception of this summer when I was reading the Wolves and then Song of Susannah. So I have read the Tolkien books 21 times. I read them in book form for most of those, but have found that audio is simply easier for me to deal with, as I can listen while relaxing, or strolling, and so on.

My favorite aspects of the Tolkien books is Gandalf and the White Council. I have carried on debates (largely in newsgroups) about Gandalf and his wizarding ways. I usually talk about Gandalf as a character with a foreknowledge of the War of the Ring, and everything leading to it. As the Unfinished tales says, he was worried about the lack of arms in the North, and encouraged Thorin and his band to re-take Erebor and their "rightful kingdom".

I have also contended he knew in advance he would perish in Middle-Earth, though he might not have know the exact where and when until he entered Moria. Then he arose much greater than before and no longer had to wear the mantle of a mere wizard.

As far as the movies go, I liked parts and disliked parts. The one scene I would have liked to have seen was the face-off between Gandalf and the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith. That scene seemed like something out of a Gunslinger showdown, and though it never came to an actual throw down, there was an underlying battle of power and will there.

Gandalf is certainly among the most intriguing characters to me, along with Galadriel, and to a lesser extent Elrond. I am a Silmarillion geek and big fan of the stories of the First and Second Ages of Middle Earth, so the characters we meet in LotR who have been around since then are the ones who most captivate me. I agree with your theory that Gandalf has some pre-knowledge of the War of the Ring. Clearly his actions between the time of the White Council and Bilbo's adventure show that he knew something big was a-coming. For that matter, if something wasn't brewing, woudl the Istari have ever been sent from Valinor to Middle Earth? I know they weren't given mission briefs or anything, but a maia with some good thinking skills like Olorin could surely look at the situation in Middle Earth and make some clever deductions.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Gandalf is certainly among the most intriguing characters to me, along with Galadriel, and to a lesser extent Elrond. I am a Silmarillion geek and big fan of the stories of the First and Second Ages of Middle Earth, so the characters we meet in LotR who have been around since then are the ones who most captivate me. I agree with your theory that Gandalf has some pre-knowledge of the War of the Ring. Clearly his actions between the time of the White Council and Bilbo's adventure show that he knew something big was a-coming. For that matter, if something wasn't brewing, woudl the Istari have ever been sent from Valinor to Middle Earth? I know they weren't given mission briefs or anything, but a maia with some good thinking skills like Olorin could surely look at the situation in Middle Earth and make some clever deductions.

One of the bad things about the movies and the book trilogy as far as it goes is their lack of portrayal of figures like Galadriel. I suppose if you don't read Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, it's hard to see what a tragic character she is. Being lead to leave Valinor and therefore falling under the ban of her line, she is young and prideful and even when the rebellious elves are given the chance to return she refuses and remains exiled. Then she's given a ring of power and forced into hiding for millennia. One of the oldest in Middle Earth but you have to goto the other sources to really see the tragedy of her life.

I personally think that the Istari in general failed at their mission. While great powers compared to Men and most elves they were almost too human for their own good. Each except Gandalf falls under some kind of obsessive behavior (and some say even Gandalf too, until almost too late). Saruman with power of the rings and his own rise to greatness, Radagast seemed just plain tired of it all and became obsessed with the plants and animals of Middle Earth.

The only other two, the "Blue Wizards", supposedly succeeded in the East, but from the way the battle is almost lost at Minas Tirith and the overwhelming army Sauron had, I'd say their missions were not a complete success.

[jayson]

I agree with you on all counts, particularly with respect to Galadriel. One who has only read the trilogy doesn't get to see her for who she is and understand the things that she has seen.

[jayson]

Here's one for you all, my most "controversial" LotR question [at least the one that usually makes people think I'm a bit off]...

Frodo, success or failure? Obviously I choose the latter or this thread wouldn't be here, but allow me to explain. Frodo was one strong and brave little hobbit who made it through a tremendous amount of opposition to get to Mt. Doom. Yet, when the time came to complete his mission, Frodo succumbed to the power of the Ring and chose to claim it as his own. There but for the clumsiness of Smeagol went all of Middle Earth. Let us hypothesize for a moment that Smeagol didn't manage to get to Mt. Doom at the same time as Sam & Frodo. What would have happened? Sauron became aware of Frodo and the Ring when he put it on and surely Sam would never have pushed Frodo into the cracks of doom. What do you think?

[William50]

Spoiler:

I think that because Frodo dies in the end, it was a failure.

[jayson]

Spoiler:

I think that because Frodo dies in the end, it was a failure.

I could be wrong but I don't think the spoiler tags are needed in this thread.

Dies in the end of what? Also, why would Frodo be immortal?

[William50]

Sorry about the spoiler tags. Frodo dies in the end of the movies when he is sent off with Bilbo, if that is the guy's name, in a ship. I assume that ship is taking them to their deaths.

[TerribleT]

Here's one for you all, my most "controversial" LotR question [at least the one that usually makes people think I'm a bit off]...

I've pretty much thought you were a little off for quite a while now. The fact that we agree some things, isn't helping your cause.

Do we, in fact, know that he succumbed to the power of the ring, or was it maybe just a momentary lapse?

[William50]

I think that it was just a momentary lapse.

[jayson]

Sorry about the spoiler tags. Frodo dies in the end of the movies when he is sent off with Bilbo, if that is the guy's name, in a ship. I assume that ship is taking them to their deaths.

According to Tolkien, you assume incorrectly. The ship is taking them to Tol Eressea aka "The Lonely Isle" [which is where Elves go to "retire" since they don't actually die] and/or Valinor [the next island over where the deities live along with elves who never came to Middle Earth back in the day, well back to Middle Earth really, but that's another matter].

It's not clear from the books, and certainly not the movies, but Tolkien's notes [mostly published by his son Christopher in several volumes afterwards] show that Bilbo and Frodo [and assumedly Gimli as well] don't stay there forever as the elves do. They are brought there to be healed of what the Ring did to them, and it's to be assumed they eventually went back to Middle Earth where they died natural deaths. He was pretty clear that "The Undying Lands" [the two islands] were not for mortals and that this was a great, but temporary, reward for the two hobbits because of their large roles in saving Middle Earth.

All that said, I can easily understand your confusion. When I first read it when I was 12 I wasn't altogether sure what happened to them either. Reading The Silmarillion helped and the History of Middle Earth series by Christopher Tolkien filled in the rest of the holes.

So now that you know that, do you still think he failed?

[jayson]

Do we, in fact, know that he succumbed to the power of the ring, or was it maybe just a momentary lapse?

Well, he does say aloud that he chooses not to destroy it and claims it as his own. With the Ring on his finger I don't see him being able to change his mind, and given the proximity to Sauron, a few more moments was all it would have taken for things to go hideously wrong.

[William50]

No.

[ManOfWesternesse]

First, to give my answer to the direct question: Frodo did indeed succumb to the power of the Ring, and but for Gollum, would have succumbed I fear to Sauron when he arrived to claim it - & there goes the whole ball-game! But then we must remember that not Elrond, nor Galadriel nor even Gandalf trusted themselves not to succumb to the Ring. Frodo's achievement to get so far was amazing.

On the matter of Frodo sailing into the west. I agree wholeheartedly with R_of_G, except in the matter of Frodo (& Bilbo & Gimli) 's possible return to Middle Earth? I would think that unlikely (at minimum surely such would have been recorded by Sam (or Merry or Pippin or whomever was then the keeper of the Book). I 'believe' that they passed away, in the fullness of time, in the Undying Lands (which would have been healing, but not undying, for these mortals). But of course we can have no proof either way on this one.

[Telynn]

Add into the mix the fact that at one point Frodo had a chance and plenty of reason to kill Gollum. But didn't. So in a way, by not killing Gollum he allowed the quest to succeed.

[jayson]

On the matter of Frodo sailing into the west. I agree wholeheartedly with R_of_G, except in the matter of Frodo (& Bilbo & Gimli) 's possible return to Middle Earth? I would think that unlikely (at minimum surely such would have been recorded by Sam (or Merry or Pippin or whomever was then the keeper of the Book). I 'believe' that they passed away, in the fullness of time, in the Undying Lands (which would have been healing, but not undying, for these mortals). But of course we can have no proof either way on this one.

I agree with you Brian to the extent that the books alone leave it up to the reader what happened to them after the ship sailed. However, in the History of Middle Earth books [comprised of all of his notes/drafts] he was pretty clear that they were going there to be healed and would eventually have to come back to Middle Earth to die [I don't think they can physically die in The Undying Lands, I don't think anyone can]. Still, as the books stand, it's open to interpretation and yours is as good as any.

[jayson]

Add into the mix the fact that at one point Frodo had a chance and plenty of reason to kill Gollum. But didn't. So in a way, by not killing Gollum he allowed the quest to succeed.

That's a good point Telynn. Perhaps ka guided Frodo into not killing him then.

[ManOfWesternesse]

...However, in the History of Middle Earth books .... he was pretty clear that they were going there to be healed and would eventually have to come back to Middle Earth to die ......

Thanks for that.
If the Great Man wrote it, in any context, at any time, on any scrap of paper, then that's good enough for me.
Ah, it's always good to learn something new!

[jayson]

Thanks for that.
If the Great Man wrote it, in any context, at any time, on any scrap of paper, then that's good enough for me.

That was pretty much my motivation for reading The History of Middle Earth stuff. I'm enormously grateful to Christopher Tolkien for the insight into his father's process. Reading the drafts and revisions and notes you really see how the stories evolved. For the Tolkien-obsessed like myself, it was the most fascinating thing to read.

[Dud-a-chum?]

I was horribly confused in many places about who was who and what was what.

Me too. I had no clue where folks were or if we were going in chronological order, or jumping back and forth in time, especially in The Two Towers book. Also, calling two main characters Sauron and Saruman led to many near anneurysms.

This is one of the reasons why I dislike the book. If the storyline is hard to follow, it means it is poorly written. He was so engrossed in mythology that he didn't bother to articulate the story, or to make the characters viable, or to write anything resembling enjoyable dialog. It may be all good as a compendium of myths, but only (at best) mediocre as prose.

This may have been already touched upon, but I'm lazy, so . . .

I think this is part of the charm of the story. Think about it this way: Tolkein wrote alot of things in the style of actual history records. He wanted the LOTR books to feel alot like actual recorded history that has been around for so long has become myth (or at least that is how I always looked at it). That in mind, I can see huge similarities between this story and many history books, including the Bible, and whether or not you consider that history or myth, it does have very similar-feeling moments of confusion and seeming contradictrion. To me, that makes it feel all the more real, because if you are looking at records of sorts, everything won't be explained, and it will seem chopped up and confusing. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that this is a great style in which to write a fantasy novel, but it is a big reason why alot of people love the LOTR story; because Tolkein made it feel so real, as if we were actually looking at actual history books of a time before history.

Again, that is merely my take on it, and I'm not even sure if I described it all that well, but yeah . . . that's my reasoning for liking the LOTR.

[jayson]

This may have been already touched upon, but I'm lazy, so . . .

I think this is part of the charm of the story. Think about it this way: Tolkein wrote alot of things in the style of actual history records. He wanted the LOTR books to feel alot like actual recorded history that has been around for so long has become myth (or at least that is how I always looked at it). ...

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that this is a great style in which to write a fantasy novel, but it is a big reason why alot of people love the LOTR story; because Tolkein made it feel so real, as if we were actually looking at actual history books of a time before history.

Again, that is merely my take on it, and I'm not even sure if I described it all that well, but yeah . . . that's my reasoning for liking the LOTR.

I think you describe it perfectly. The whole trilogy is supposed to read as the written recollections of the historical events of the series, not as a straight narrative. It may make it harder to follow or to "get into" for some, but for me it's the appeal.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Yes, well expressed Dud-a-chum.
It's even an aspect that they tried to be true to in the films, with Bilbo writing the Red Book at the beginning of Fellowship & then Frodo handing the Book on to Sam to be finished after he has resolved to go West.