The Shining S/L from Subterranean Press

[Jimimck]

I won't be receiving mine until June so I hope what ever solution is presented will be available then if required.

[Tommy]

My copy has some faint rubbing and stains to the traycase but nowhere near as bad as ICry4Oy's copy, my new computer and camera aren't playing too well together at the moment otherwise I would show some pics

[barlow]

That sounds like a possible solution. I use brodart covers on all my books. What about making a dust jacket out of just the clear plastic part? Are Brodart covers Mylar?

I believe they are as they sell the a thicker Mylar on rolls that is used for books that do not have a dust jacket. but you could trim a regular Brodart and do the same thing.

[Randall Flagg]

Mine has rubbing/ink transfer issues. I can't vote... probably because I'm brand new.

I adjusted the poll to indicate your vote.

[Cook]

I just voted no damage to mine.
But I did take up Jerome's idea to protect.
Thanks for the heads up.

[TwistedNadine]

Very much appreciate you coming onto the site and posting, Bill.
Also appreciate your willingness to address and resolve the issue.

Hey all,

Please forgive me for being brief today. I've spent most of the past 18 hours with one of our cats, who appears to have suffered a minor stroke. So I'm not at my best.

Thus far, we've shipped roughly 2/3 of the customer orders for the limited edition of The Shining. Because we used hand marbled paper, which is more fragile and doesn't hold ink as well as machine marbled paper, we expected some rubbing and transference of color in the traycases, though not to this degree. Out of the 400 copies shipped, we've received five complaints about the rubbing.

If you're one of the folks with an affected copy, please drop me an email at subpress@gmail.com. The best thing you can do at the moment is to let me know about it, directly, so we can have a production meeting to decide how best to address this issue, or even if there is a solution beyond offering to accept returns and send refunds to those who want them.

Best,

Bill

PS. I've had a rough week, and y'all can be a passionate and fractious lot, so I'd appreciate if you kept to the courteous side when writing.

[Roseannebarr]

My second copy #214 Came in excellent condition! No rubbing, no fading!! EXCELLENT!

[skyofcrack]

Because we used hand marbled paper, which is more fragile and doesn't hold ink as well as machine marbled paper, we expected some rubbing and transference of color in the traycases, though not to this degree. Out of the 400 copies shipped, we've received five complaints about the rubbing.

This is a completely astonishing statement. I can only assume this is the first time you are divulging this info to your customers who have already PAID you for this book. The paper doesn't hold ink as well? Are you kidding me? So, it's going to fade over time? You expected some rubbing and transference of color? That's unacceptable as a book business. We, as collectors want mint books. We're not paying for VG books. You're not a used book store. You shipped 400 copies and 400 customers should be happy. Period.

Lastly, about your cat. I've had a ton of personal stuff happen to me recently, NONE of which I've brought to this forum. You have a business to run and that business is to produce/sell books. I love cats. All animals but I don't care about your excuse. If you can't ship these books or get someone else to ship the books then you send out a mass e-mail to your customers apologizing for the delay but a family emergency came up and shipping will resume shortly.

I don't know if these books are being shipped via Media Mail or not but no expensive limited edition should be shipped that way. The package spends way too much time in the system. Priority/First Class or UPS only.

[Randall Flagg]

Bill asked for just a bit of patience for a response on this (significant) issue. I am not discouraging comments and yours is well stated, but let's try to avoid "piling on".
Once Bill and his team have a response, then we can all either be happy or not.
Let's at least wait until Monday or Tuesday for an answer.
I still encourage every member to indicate in our poll whether or not their copy is damaged. It's a small sample size, but a snapshot of 25-50 orders gives a good idea.

[divemaster]

Bill was immediately and completely courteous and accommodating to me once I informed him of the particular issue I had with my copy. So far he is handling it with professionalism, which I appreciate.

I wished him well with the cat issue. I love cats.

[subpress]

skyofcrack: No shipping time was lost due to my dealing with Amy's health issues. The warehouse was up and running, and fully staffed, the entire time.

Bill
SubPress

[wizardsrainbow]

I have rubbing...modest but can see it if I turn the book into the light at an angle.....same darker spots in traycase that RF showed too. I voted in the poll.

[DoctorZaius]

I think I was the first one to question this on the other thread. Thanks to those more knowledgeable that me for the finer description of what the marks are. I just voted. I have more coming and I will let you know how those are when I get them. Who knows, maybe it's all my fault. I kinda jinxed us when I expressed how disappointed I was that we would not be getting the dust jacket in the first place. A told-you-so moment if ever there was one.

[evilash]

I have not received mine yet but will vote when I do. I don't think it is fair to Bill to jump on him when he is clearly trying to solve the problem. I personally appreciate the fact that he chose to post here and let us know he is aware of the issue and give us a glimpse into everything he has on his plate both personally and at the business level. We should be happy that we are not dealing with a faceless corporation but a human being with the same problems that we all face at one time or another. Until Sub Press fails to rectify the issue I feel it is only fair that we give them the benefit of the doubt. Just my opinion.

[barlow]

skyofcrack: No shipping time was lost due to my dealing with Amy's health issues. The warehouse was up and running, and fully staffed, the entire time.

Bill
SubPress

I hope everything works out with your cat Bill, pets really are part of the family!

Ken

[tippy4]

As a former postal employee I can say the only real difference between priority mail, first class, and media mail is the amount of time the package my sit at a location and weather they go ground or air.

Not 100% true. Boxes shipped via MEDIA MAIL are subject to inspection. I have had a few of the books I have shipped inspected, and a few I have received have been inspected. I don't believe my items suffered any damage as a result.

The media mail thing disturbed me since I placed my order. I actually asked to pay more to have it shipped by a more secure method but I was told nothing else was available. For over a year I couldn't get a grasp on why a company would only ship $450+ books via the absolute worst and least reliable shipping method available in America. Media mail with no signature required and no insurance is an accident waiting to happen, and I'm positive these books wouldn't have suffered as much damage if they were at least sent out priority mail. If they spent 2 days in the mail instead of a week or more, that's many fewer days they would have been rubbing around in their cases.

99% of what I buy and sell is shipped media mail. I and the people I have sold to have literally saved thousands of dollars by using it. As long as the book is properly packaged, it should not matter how you ship it.

In fact, every now and then I get a seller who tries to cram my book into one of those free Priority Mail boxes that you can get at the post office just because they are too cheap to buy a box, or too lazy to find a free box that is a sized appropriately. Often the boxes are too small, and do not allow for sufficient padding.

I would rather have my book show up undamaged a few days later than damaged and sooner.

I am not sure why you consider media mail unreliable or the worst way to ship. As far as sending it out without insurance.....in the long run, insurance is a sucker's bet (just like in black jack)...which is why the Post Office offers it. It is cheaper for SubPress not to insure the book and instead replace any that are damaged themselves.

Let's assume insurance is $6 on every book......well that would be $4,500 spent on insurance......probably a lot cheaper to replace the few damaged copies themselves or "self-insure".

[Randall Flagg]

Obviously inside the USA, but I echo tippy4's statement.
Books are heavy. Big books are even heavier (that sounds kinda dumb...but true). A well packaged USPS media mail book with delivery confirmation sent most anywhere in the USA is less than $7 for 3lbs. It's the best shipping price available. It's always a CBA (Cost benefit analysis) when shipping books.
The bigger the project, and the more important true package tracking is, the more likely that a publisher may choose (and pass along to the buyer) UPS VS. USPS.

Little if anything is going to change over the next 48+ hours, so please answer the poll, please post images, and please take a deep breath.

Much like when CD came here and resolved issues-thus creating a ton of good will; allow Bill to get a good grasp on the true numbers and get back to us in a reasonable time frame.

I'm less than thrilled with my book, but kicking Bill/Sub Press in the nuts still leaves me with a problem.
Very few if any of the people I have kicked in the nuts wanted to then make me happy.

[Jimimck]

I'm less than thrilled with my book, but kicking Bill/Sub Press in the nuts still leaves me with a problem.
Very few if any of the people I have kicked in the nuts wanted to then make me happy.

Love it. Very well put.

[wizardsrainbow]

I'll weigh in here (for better or worse) because I ship hundreds of orders a year at Betts...Media mail is my shipment of choice...on high value books I also add on Signature Confirmation. Like Tippy (who ships a lot too), I pack extremely thoroughly to prevent damage and in 4+ years have incurred very very few problems. If a customer REQUESTS Priority Mail, then I will do that. I also upgrade some orders to Priority as a favor (charging them only Media Mail rates).....I have saved customers tens of thousands of dollars by using media mail....Overseas is a different story....UPS and FedEx are prohibitively expensive so are not even remotely an option. And USPS rules state anything over 4 pounds MUST be sent Priority International....only under 4 pounds can you send 1st Class International which is roughly half the price. Given that I ship books, I'd say 85%-90% of all international orders MUST go Priority.

In short, domestically, as long as you pack well, media mail is by far your best bet on a risk/reward basis.

[DoctorZaius]

I should add that Bill has been, and remains, a fine guy to work with. I have purchased a lot of his books over the years and any time I have had any kind of an issue he has been more than fair with me.

[Br!an]

Media mail isn't the problem. The issue that people are having isn't caused by poor packaging. I have never received anything from SubPress that was poorly packaged.

[mcdonaldj]

Had the wife open up the box and #23 (my lucky # but not this time) has the same rubbing and transfer to the case as well. I'm 7760 miles away for the next 5 months but will post pics when she sends them.

[JXE]

Here are the pictures I just emailed off to them. I'm particularly disappointed about the stain on the corner of the front side of the traycase, the blue staining throughout the traycase (it's more profound in person), and the white spots which are pieces of the marbled paper that have been ripped completely off the book.

















I don't buy many expensive books; but when I have they've never showed up like this. Is this common in this hobby? It seems to me like this is a real amateur job all around, especially considering a high profile project like this.

[JXE]

I see there are a lot of media mail fans here, but I'm still convinced that the 4 days my book spent in an infinite loop through the same sort facility certainly didn't help things. If the paper gets rubbed by the book rubbing around inside the case without protection, my book had 4 extra days to rub around in there. If it were shipped by UPS or a more expensive service, there's no denying it wouldn't have arrived days after the estimated delivery date like it ultimately did.

Now, for those who are comfortable with the service, they should by all means be able to request it and save some cash. I still believe there should have been an opportunity for others who don't like it to be able to pay more to have it shipped differently. That's exactly what I requested after I placed my order, and I was told media mail was the only thing possible. When I buy valuable books from other companies, I have the opportunity to pay a bit more for UPS or a faster USPS service and it makes me a lot more comfortable as a buyer. If I'm paying $450 for a book, I'll gladly pay another $30-40 to overnight it.

I called this shipping combination (media mail, no signature confirmation, no insurance)... not just media mail alone... the worst shipping service in America because it takes the longest to get there and there's no sense of security for the recipient. If these books were sold through ebay or paid for by Paypal, the shipper would be required to use signature confirmation over $250. These books were $450 and they were just left at doorsteps. Signature confirmation is added security for me because it gives the driver one last chance to review everything and make sure it's going to the right house. Finally, in response to the comment about insurance being useless... I've only had one claim in the past 15 years of buying and selling, and I received a check in the mail within 2 weeks containing the full insured value of the item (it was a print).

What is going to happen if there are cases where these uninsured books are never delivered to customers? What is going to happen if these uninsured books get delivered to the wrong address and never make it to the buyer's hands? At this point they're 14 months too late for a chargeback; and while I'm not going to put words into SP's mouth... many sellers would look at the delivery confirmation "proof" and tell the buyer they're out of luck.

Media mail isn't the problem. The issue that people are having isn't caused by poor packaging. I have never received anything from SubPress that was poorly packaged.

The books have no dust jacket or any other protective packaging materials inside of the traycase and the paper is being scratched off of the books because they're rubbing against the rough interior of the traycases as they roll across the country. The books are actually staining the traycases where the rubbing occurs the most. How is their packaging that is damaging the books not considered "poor packaging"?

[Kingfan24]

ouch... that's pretty bad