Whose responsibility was...

[candy]

yes, i am a little confusing aren't i - sorry.
while i do believe in ka, i also believe the people can control it to a certain extent, i believe that susan was meant to die to enable roland to discover his journey to the dark tower, however i beleive that her means of death could have been altered. i was so very angry at roland for loosing sight of those around him when they needed him most.

if he had kept his wits about him susan may well have died knowing that roland truely loved her, as it was i felt that she died feeling that he had left her, roland also felt that he had let her die. if he had done more to save her he would have felt it easier to move on. but then again, it all comes back to Ka, because he would then not be the roland that we all know and love, and he may not have become so single minded in his obsession with the tower.

yep, i am certainly contrary

[Munchausen]

There's a right terrible amount of back-reading hyar and I'ma gonna do it after I git this hyar post over with, do ya. I guess the easy answer is to blame ka but thet thar is a soft option. Ka may put things in our way but I don't think that it precludes free will. Cord an' Rhea may have both been dealt some sorry cards but that don't give them license to be utter harpies. Cord and Susan were dealt the same hands and became different people. So I have no problem blaming them. Cord got her in to the situation and Rhea fired up the townsfolk. Iffin I were ta blame summun else, t'wouldn't be Roland. It'd be thet "Good" Feller. He's the one thet got everbuddy all stirred up inna first place.

[pathoftheturtle]

Yar, candy, those thoughts are rather disorganized, but life is very mysterious, after all. I think that you are partly right, and I believe that that is better than building a consistent structure mostly out of wishful thinking.

Lest you think that I am deliberately withholding, my opinion of what ka means is really very simple: Que sera, sera.

... if one person had just done one thing different.

Is this any way to run a railroad?

[candy]

thank you for not just laughing
I do have very dis-organisd thoughts about most things

[pixiedark76]

I think that it was everyone from above. Cordelia and Rhea (mostly Rhea) had the idea in the first place. Cordelia got the townspeople involved and the towns people let it happen.
Sadly, I blame Roland most of all. He only cared about the battle and did not protect Susan enough. Then, when he knew she was in danger, he did not go back for her.
How could he do such a thing, she was carrying his child!

[Jean]

and I believe that that is better than building a consistent structure mostly out of wishful thinking.

[Sickrose]

I think Aunt Cord and Rhea. Aunt Cord shouldn't have let Susan be the mayor's gilly because this set off the chain of events. It caused so much hatred and friction between them which Rhea capitalised on.

I guess Roland, maybe, to some extent, but if he had gone back for her Farson's men would have won and Roland and his friends would be killed as would Susan I guess.

It's a tragic chain of events and the death of the mayor caused so much unrest in Mejis that the people reverted to the old ways of superstition. The people of Mejis were open to Rhea's suggestions.

[daemon]

Well I think that responsible for Susan's death is

Spoiler:

Stephen King.

Ok now to be honest, I believe that everyone mentioned in the poll has an amount of responsibility (except ka). But me also I blame Roland for the death of the girl.He overestimated his power and his abilities.

[SynysterSaint]

Cordelia and Rhea were the sole people to be blamed for Susannah's death. Roland thought that she was back in hiding and safe. There was no way he could have known that she would have been burned; it was only when he looked into the glass that he saw it. And tell me: judging by Roland's reaction and his feelings about her the rest of the book, do you really believe he wouldn't have saved her if he could? I agree that the citizens of Mejis helped in Susannah's murder, but they were mislead. They believed they were getting rid of someone who threatened all of their lives, they had no idea what was really going on. Because of that, I feel that they should be guilty and have to atone for the murder but not held responsible.

[SynysterSaint]

But me also I blame Roland for the death of the girl.He overestimated his power and his abilities.

He didn't overestimate anything. If it weren't for Cordelia going to Rhea, his plan would have worked flawlessly. He admitted later that the only mistake he made was not killing (Rhea, Cordelia?) on sight. I can't remember which one it was, but either death would have saved Susannah's life.

[Brainslinger]

He admitted later that the only mistake he made was not killing (Rhea, Cordelia?) on sight. I can't remember which one it was, but either death would have saved Susannah's life.

It would have been Rhea. I don't think he didn't considered killing Cordelia. I think he just saw her as an irritant, not really an enemy at all. Even at the end, when he described her fate he seemed more pitying than condemning even stating that he didn't regard her as evil. I might try to find the exact quote later.

I agree that he didn't overestimate his powers and abilities. It's arguable he did make a mistake, by peering into the grapefruit when he could have ridden straight for Susan after their showdown with the Coffin Hunters but that's not the same thing. And of course the grapefruit played it's part too in showing him the vision of the Tower and only showing him other events when it was too late.

Mind you it was that first vision of the Tower which helped spark his interest in finding the Tower too, which led to all the events we've read. So ka has it's place there too.

[SynysterSaint]

Mind you it was that first vision of the Tower which helped spark his interest in finding the Tower too, which led to all the events we've read. So ka has it's place there too.

I agree with you one-hundred percent, Brainslinger. I believe that Roland did make a very large mistake when he decided to look into the grapefruit instead of riding straight to Susan. But, let's be honest, he would not have made it there in time to save her. If anything, it would have been worse because, I believe, he would have ended up killing everyone out of rage.

Granted, I believe it would have helped Roland at the time, but it would have haunted him worse than seeing her die in person, hearing her last words to him, and then him murdering hundreds of people who are essentially innocent of a crime- they were tricked into believing Susan was evil and were simply trying to protect themselves. He can barely live with the memories of Mejis as is; imagine if he had all that extra weight on his conscious! He already blames himself for Susan's death. Anything more would just be unbearable.

Although it was a moral mistake on Roland's part, it is by no means a mistake in regards to his, and the rest of the town's, well-being.

And yes, I agree with you that this was Ka's fault. However, blaming Ka for what had to be done to get Roland involved in his quest for the Tower is ludicrous. Ka is not a person: it's a force. Susannah doesn't blame gravity for her being struck by the train, she blames Jack Mort for giving her fate over to gravity. It's essentially the same circumstance: Rhea and Cordelia pushed Roland into Ka's mercy, and just like gravity, Ka is unbending to emotions. It does what it does and that's all that can be said.

[Savvy]

How could he do such a thing, she was carrying his child!

She didn't tell him she was pregnant, or did I miss read?

[SynysterSaint]

She didn't tell him she was pregnant, or did I miss read?

As far as I know, Roland found out after-the-fact.

[Savvy]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

[Letti]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

The glass - the grapefruit - let him know to make him suffer more.

Granted, I believe it would have helped Roland at the time, but it would have haunted him worse than seeing her die in person, hearing her last words to him.

I don't agree. I think the glass made it as hard and horrible for him as possible. Seeing it in person or in the glass.. it don't think it makes any difference. Don't forget that the glass was deeply evil with great power.

and then him murdering hundreds of people who are essentially innocent of a crime- they were tricked into believing Susan was evil and were simply trying to protect themselves.

Innocent? I find them everything but innocent. I don't say they were evil people who wanted to kill a young innocent girl but they believed what they believed because they wanted to believe in it. They wanted to blame someone for all their sadness and mistakes and they did.

[Savvy]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

The glass - the grapefruit - let him know to make him suffer more.

Just re-read and it did make him suffer more but I still don't see how it could have shown him she was pregnant thats all, and after he had finished telling, nothing was mentioned about a baby. He blamed himself for killing Susan but not his unborn child.

[Letti]

Ah well its an excuse to read them again I suppose. How did he find out?

The glass - the grapefruit - let him know to make him suffer more.

Just re-read and it did make him suffer more but I still don't see how it could have shown him she was pregnant thats all, and after he had finished telling, nothing was mentioned about a baby. He blamed himself for killing Susan but not his unborn child.

It didn't show.. it whispered or I don't know how to describe it. I read it quite a long time ago so I might be wrong.

[Savvy]

I like to think he didn't know anyway

[SynysterSaint]

Innocent? I find them everything but innocent. I don't say they were evil people who wanted to kill a young innocent girl but they believed what they believed because they wanted to believe in it. They wanted to blame someone for all their sadness and mistakes and they did.

The problem here is that you're judging their society's values based on ours. In our world, murder is seen as wrong. The death penalty is being abolished and we're trying to find more humane ways of dealing with criminals. In Mejis, however, that's not the case. In their society, setting someone to a public execution is completely understandable assuming that they've done something, such as treachery as Susan had been accused, to deserve it. The citizens of Mejis, for whatever reason, believed that Susan was trying to bring an end to their world and death to all of its citizens. In the terms of their society and their knowledge at the time, I believe their actions against Susan were justifiable, even if I don't agree with it.

[Letti]

Innocent? I find them everything but innocent. I don't say they were evil people who wanted to kill a young innocent girl but they believed what they believed because they wanted to believe in it. They wanted to blame someone for all their sadness and mistakes and they did.

The problem here is that you're judging their society's values based on ours. In our world, murder is seen as wrong. The death penalty is being abolished and we're trying to find more humane ways of dealing with criminals. In Mejis, however, that's not the case. In their society, setting someone to a public execution is completely understandable assuming that they've done something, such as treachery as Susan had been accused, to deserve it. The citizens of Mejis, for whatever reason, believed that Susan was trying to bring an end to their world and death to all of its citizens. In the terms of their society and their knowledge at the time, I believe their actions against Susan were justifiable, even if I don't agree with it.

They believed the strangers who looked like people who would sell their own mother for two bucks. That's why I judge them.

[SynysterSaint]

They believed the strangers who looked like people who would sell their own mother for two bucks. That's why I judge them.

I'm not saying you can't judge them; far from it! I think they were all horrid people. But on the same point you can't blame them because you think they're bad people. It's the same in this society: you can't convict someone as being guilty because they don't live up to a standard you set for yourself. The truth of the matter is: the citizens of Mejis had every right to execute Susan, even though their reasons were wrong.

What "strangers" are you referring to, by the way?

[Letti]

They believed the strangers who looked like people who would sell their own mother for two bucks. That's why I judge them.

I'm not saying you can't judge them; far from it! I think they were all horrid people. But on the same point you can't blame them because you think they're bad people. It's the same in this society: you can't convict someone as being guilty because they don't live up to a standard you set for yourself. The truth of the matter is: the citizens of Mejis had every right to execute Susan, even though their reasons were wrong.

What "strangers" are you referring to, by the way?

You misunderstand me. I judge them and I blame them but I do not think that they are bad people. Not at all. They are people who are at the edge of a falling, moving world. They are lost in their soul. But it doesn't make them less guilty.
They are just people.

I mean the coffin hunters. I know some folks from Mejis helped them but still the coffin hunters and mostly Jonas was the one who started to plant and build up the lies.

[SynysterSaint]

You misunderstand me. I judge them and I blame them but I do not think that they are bad people. Not at all. They are people who are at the edge of a falling, moving world. They are lost in their soul. But it doesn't make them less guilty.
They are just people.

I mean the coffin hunters. I know some folks from Mejis helped them but still the coffin hunters and mostly Jonas was the one who started to plant and build up the lies.

But why do you think they are guilty? As far as they knew, they were doing what was necessary. They had no idea they were tricked. If you were in a position where it was either kill someone else or allow the deaths of yourself and everyone you love, what would you do?

And the Big Coffin Hunters were anything but strangers. They were in the town before Roland and his Tet. What it came down to were the words of Cordelia, Rhea, and the Big Coffin Hunters against Roland, his Tet, and Susan. Point is, the side that was telling the truth happened to be less credible in the town.

[Letti]

You misunderstand me. I judge them and I blame them but I do not think that they are bad people. Not at all. They are people who are at the edge of a falling, moving world. They are lost in their soul. But it doesn't make them less guilty.
They are just people.

I mean the coffin hunters. I know some folks from Mejis helped them but still the coffin hunters and mostly Jonas was the one who started to plant and build up the lies.

1. But why do you think they are guilty? As far as they knew, they were doing what was necessary. They had no idea they were tricked. If you were in a position where it was either kill someone else or allow the deaths of yourself and everyone you love, what would you do?

2. And the Big Coffin Hunters were anything but strangers. They were in the town before Roland and his Tet. What it came down to were the words of Cordelia, Rhea, and the Big Coffin Hunters against Roland, his Tet, and Susan. Point is, the side that was telling the truth happened to be less credible in the town.

1. Usually people do what they think is necessary. Most of the sinners do what they do because they think/feel/believe it's necessary.
Most of the murderers aren't hobby killers. They kill because of some reason. It can be a good one or a weak one but who has the right to judge it?

2. Yep, they had arrived before Roland's ka-tet did but it doesn't make any difference. They weren't part of the folken. They were neither part of Mejis nor its culture nor its history. They were travellers, strangers who came to Mejis from far far away Gan knows from where the blue hell.

(Don't think I am trying to convince you I just write down my opinion and feelings.)