Mordred - and his complex personality

[Mordred Deschain]

Well, I guess it would depend on who I'm wishing into Hell. Obviously people like Adolf Hitler, Christopher Colombus, Pol Pot and Stalin would deserve to burn in Hell for their crimes. People like Ed Gein, on the other hand, are more sad and pathetic.

I don't mean to start a debate about who should go to hell or not, but I always like to look at the entire picture. Who should really go to hell, the people you think should, or the weak people who let them do what they did? And really, I don't mean anything by this, but it makes me wonder if people would have just stood up and said "HEY ADOLF, YOU FCK HEAD, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?"

[CyberGhostface]

I think it was either A.) People who supported Hitler, B.) People who had no idea what was going on, or C.) People who were scared that they'd be killed if they spoke up. Not many people really knew about the extent of his evil until it was too late. Chaplin, for example, has said he wouldn't have portrayed Hitler so lightly if he had known how far he had gone.

I wonder if anyone's seen the "Lil' Hitler" skit on Robot Chicken. [ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=KDRa9I-NwDY"]YouTube - Lil' Hitler[/ame]

[jayson]

I think it was either A.) People who supported Hitler, B.) People who had no idea what was going on, or C.) People who were scared that they'd be killed if they spoke up. Not many people really knew about the extent of his evil until it was too late. Chaplin, for example, has said he wouldn't have portrayed Hitler so lightly if he had known how far he had gone.

I wonder if anyone's seen the "Lil' Hitler" skit on Robot Chicken. YouTube - Lil' Hitler

It's all of the above. A LOT can be attributed to the German people living in fear. Propaganda works.

Also, that Lil Hitler bit on Robot Chicken is great. Anyone here ever watch Mr. Show and remember the Hitler clones?

[Letti]

We have just got a "he was born good" vote! Who was it?

[CyberGhostface]

Yeah, I know all the options were true, I was just listing the ones I knew.

I'm curious as to who said Mordred was born good...I mean, he was a sentient being who was able to have mature thoughts at infancy (I.E. not some mindless animal or creature who didn't know better) and he ate his mother.

[Mordred Deschain]

Yeah, I know all the options were true, I was just listing the ones I knew.

I'm curious as to who said Mordred was born good...I mean, he was a sentient being who was able to have mature thoughts at infancy (I.E. not some mindless animal or creature who didn't know better) and he ate his mother.

Ahhhh....but see I...er Mordred had sentient thoughts, but not the wisdom. And I seem to have gotten the idea that Mordred (no matter his parents) was bred for one purpose. To help destroy the tower and rule next to his red father in the darkness. He may have had the ability to make his own choices and who knows if Roland would have tried to nurture him, things may have been different (a different level of the tower), but it seemed to me that it was all pre-ordained. or it was his destiny to try and destroy Roland.

[obscurejude]

Those are good points Mordred. Mordred was a genetically engineered freak. I think its another example of King sending out a flare concerning the dangers and limited potential of technology.

[CyberGhostface]

Ahhhh....but see I...er Mordred had sentient thoughts, but not the wisdom. And I seem to have gotten the idea that Mordred (no matter his parents) was bred for one purpose. To help destroy the tower and rule next to his red father in the darkness. He may have had the ability to make his own choices and who knows if Roland would have tried to nurture him, things may have been different (a different level of the tower), but it seemed to me that it was all pre-ordained. or it was his destiny to try and destroy Roland.

Right. So he wasn't born good. And even if Roland were to reach out to the little bastard, Mordred stated that he would never be able to look at Roland as dinh like Jake would.

[Empath of the White]

I was the born good vote...I think. In any case I've argued that he could've been brought over to the ka-tet's side in the conflict. I kinda think he's like Venom: there was lots of potential that could've been explored with a little planning.

[Letti]

I was the born good vote...I think. In any case I've argued that he could've been brought over to the ka-tet's side in the conflict. I kinda think he's like Venom: there was lots of potential that could've been explored with a little planning.

Thank you for letting us know it.
Your vote made the poll much more interesting.

[Empath of the White]

What an interesting idea. I don't think that I can agree but still. BUT! To tell you the truth when I was reading book 7 I hoped to find some empathy in Roland's words.. not love.. not care but a tiny but of empathy or understanding. I was looking for it. But Roland was always as cold as a dead tree when he was talking about Mordred.. so I feel it would be a damn big development for Roland if he could feel anything about Mordred.

I think he actually did feel something for Mordred. I was rereading the last book and came to the part where Roland palavers with Jake in Thunderclap. Jake found one of Mordred's hairs and started asking about the spiderboy. Now, I think if Oy had been given the hair, he could've sniffed Mordred out and the gunslingers could've either capped him in his sleep or at least got the jump on Mordred. Yet Roland chose to let Mordred be.

Sure, the Devar-Toi and the Breakers were a big priority, but it wouldn't have taken too long, I don't think, to find and put an end to Mordred in his sleep.

[obscurejude]

What an interesting idea. I don't think that I can agree but still. BUT! To tell you the truth when I was reading book 7 I hoped to find some empathy in Roland's words.. not love.. not care but a tiny but of empathy or understanding. I was looking for it. But Roland was always as cold as a dead tree when he was talking about Mordred.. so I feel it would be a damn big development for Roland if he could feel anything about Mordred.

I think he actually did feel something for Mordred. I was rereading the last book and came to the part where Roland palavers with Jake in Thunderclap. Jake found one of Mordred's hairs and started asking about the spiderboy. Now, I think if Oy had been given the hair, he could've sniffed Mordred out and the gunslingers could've either capped him in his sleep or at least got the jump on Mordred. Yet Roland chose to let Mordred be.

Sure, the Devar-Toi and the Breakers were a big priority, but it wouldn't have taken too long, I don't think, to find and put an end to Mordred in his sleep.

Didn't Roland also give a speech to Jake about how he wasn't sure what Mordred was and how it is best to just wait in those situations. I would challenge your post by the fact that Roland smiled when he shot Mordred and watched him burn in the campfire.

[CyberGhostface]

I think Roland's general consensus was (and my memory is a bit hazy being that it's been a long time since I reread the series) was "I won't go after Mordred if he won't go after me, but if he does, I will kill him without hesitation".

As for feeling anything for Mordred, I think Roland saw Jake as more of a son than Mordred could ever be.

[Letti]

What an interesting idea. I don't think that I can agree but still. BUT! To tell you the truth when I was reading book 7 I hoped to find some empathy in Roland's words.. not love.. not care but a tiny but of empathy or understanding. I was looking for it. But Roland was always as cold as a dead tree when he was talking about Mordred.. so I feel it would be a damn big development for Roland if he could feel anything about Mordred.

I think he actually did feel something for Mordred. I was rereading the last book and came to the part where Roland palavers with Jake in Thunderclap. Jake found one of Mordred's hairs and started asking about the spiderboy. Now, I think if Oy had been given the hair, he could've sniffed Mordred out and the gunslingers could've either capped him in his sleep or at least got the jump on Mordred. Yet Roland chose to let Mordred be.

Sure, the Devar-Toi and the Breakers were a big priority, but it wouldn't have taken too long, I don't think, to find and put an end to Mordred in his sleep.

You might be right but I feel he just didn't give a damn about him. Roland wasn't afraid of him at all and didn't see real power in him. So he didn't waste his time.

[flaggwalkstheline]

i think mordred wasnt born evil but he wasnt born good either, mordred is a victim of circumstance, what happened happened and he couldnt do anything to control his ka

That said when people talk about how mad they r that he killed flagg i think that they should remember that flagg is the ultimate trickster and throughout all the stories with him in them he is never as powerful in the end as he initially appeared to be, that was part of the reason for the wizard of oz comparison/ reference in dt4, to prove that flagg is in the end a humbug who uses fear rather than power to get what he wants

a whole theme in the 7th book seems to be how nothing is ever as strong as you think it is initially whether good or evil, mordred, flagg, the CK, even roland himself and that fits with the deaths/ ka of all of those characters

[Mordred Deschain]

That said when people talk about how mad they r that he killed flagg i think that they should remember that flagg is the ultimate trickster and throughout all the stories with him in them he is never as powerful in the end as he initially appeared to be, that was part of the reason for the wizard of oz comparison/ reference in dt4, to prove that flagg is in the end a humbug who uses fear rather than power to get what he wants

This I like. I was upset that Flagg died so easily, but ya, in The Stand it's basically the same thing. I don't mean exact, of course,

Spoiler:

but even know Flagg has that last power show when he creates a flame that rolls down on that one guy who stands up to him and then spreads all over the guy(just before Trash comes back with the nuke), he was loosing his power and he was controlling Vegas thru fear.

Ya, it makes sense.

And hey, Flaggwalkstheline

Spoiler:

When do you think the Flagg in Wizard and Glass was from? It has to be after the Nuke, because of the reference when Tick Tock says "my life for you" and Flagg says something about a friend used to say that too (or something). right? So that means he would have had to regain his power while on that island, right?

[LadyHitchhiker]

Spoiler:

I'm not sure about the after the stand thing, because who knows how many people have said "my life for you" to the Flagg man?

[flaggwalkstheline]

i didnt say flagg has no power but its mostly just show, just a song and dance which actually in my opinion makes him cooler than if he actually were an all powerful wizard

[LadyHitchhiker]

I think he has a lot of power but the source is unstable.

[Mordred Deschain]

i didnt say flagg has no power but its mostly just show, just a song and dance which actually in my opinion makes him cooler than if he actually were an all powerful wizard

I hear you. I just never put it together before

[Hbgunslinger]

I just read this thread so forgive me I know not who posted what i'm going to reference.
Someone said why instead of trying to palaver with Mordred he just killed him. (if my memory serves me correct)
I in Rolands place would have done the same thing.

Spoiler:

He did kill Oy

which right there makes him deserve a long and painful death. I voted that he was evil, but good as well because of the fact that Roland was in fact half of his father. I think It would have taken alot for him to ever even begin to be "good". I'm not sure if Roland or Susannah or even Mia could have changed him from what he was.
Also the fact that I hate and am afraid of spiders doesn't help the fact that I couldn't see hm being good.
However, I think that if he was in the books a bit longer we could have seen more of him and maybe gotten a better idea of what his reaction would have been IF Roland had tried to talk to him. I when reading WOTC and SOS was truly expecting him to be in it more. Maybe immediatley in the beggining of SOS if he was born and then we would have had more time to watch him and observe him. Just my 2cents. I don't know if that makes sense.
If I was in Rolands position during Blue Heavan I would have hunted him down and killed him when I found his tracks outside the cave. I would have never let him live.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I personally thought that

Spoiler:

Mordred was beyond palaver. His spider instincts were so strong that his mind was completely alien to Roland's and he only desired food. For one thing, he was too young.

[Wuducynn]

By virtue of the fact that this thread is about a character that is soley involved in the last book, do you folk really think it's necessary for all the spoiler tags?

[Wuducynn]

I personally thought that Mordred was beyond palaver. His spider instincts were so strong that his mind was completely alien to Roland's and he only desired food. For one thing, he was too young.

Mordred was able to talk with anyone, so he could palaver with Roland.

[flaggwalkstheline]

yes i do, mordred may have appeared in the last book but his creation went through books 1,3,5 and 6 before he was born