I think Susannah flipped. It explains why she dumped the gun... she was a different identity. The two Susannah's are are mutually exclusive in the same way as the new Eddie and Jake.
What do you think Monte?
I think Susannah flipped. It explains why she dumped the gun... she was a different identity. The two Susannah's are are mutually exclusive in the same way as the new Eddie and Jake.
What do you think Monte?
I think that methaphorically, I agree with you, jude. However I do not believe that there are 2 Susannahs. I think with her memories fading and the gun being plugged she became a different version of herself, but I don't think it's quite the same as Eddie & Jake.
YOU MUST CHILL. I HAVE HIDDEN YOUR KEYS.
I think she dumped the gun because she was losing her memory and thus her attachment to it... and it lost it's magic. she could see that it wouldn't work anymore. I think it's the same Susannah, but I think she was rewarded for her faithfulness AND her obedience to ka. She knew that Roland was supposed to reach the tower alone and she didn't fight that. She just found her way out.
What if Suze is looping now--on her own quest for "The Tower" and redemption she is returned to that very moment every time.
But one time...she keeps the gun
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
You should check out Monte's thread on twinners.Originally Posted by Ves'Ka Gan
Anyway I think to step to the other side of that door and to throw that gun have the same meaning. So I wasn't surprised that she got rid of it quickly.
Roland would have understood.
I still think she should have kept the gun, because even if her memory was fading, she must have known to always keep the gun with her, because she always had it with her, even when her memory was going? She would have remembered it wouldn't she?
Opinion in politics, and politics, is an evil which has caused many a fellow to be hung while he’s still young and pretty.
This is a great thread..I hate that I wasn't here earlier.
I've said it in a few other places, but the point for me here is that Susannah is the only only member of the tet that gets it By this I mean that she is aware that Roland's true aim was to "question" whatever resided at the top of the tower. Saving the world was always secondary to him ( or so said Mia in their palavar in SOS) That is the most critical point here. I think she understood that if she continued a) she would surely die and b) the tower would surely reject Roland. She understood that the goal had already been accomplished, and that the rest was only foolish pride. I don't see the selfishness in that. Should she die just because her friends did? I don't see the rationality in that. Jake and Eddie's death came before the Tower was saved. This made their deaths necessary.
Perhaps if they had lived, she would have been able to convince them to leave with her (though i doubt jake would have....maybe eddie)
I used to hate susannah, but I now see her as the most enlightened of the ka-tets members. I love how she puts it all togehter.
Last edited by Pere Callahan; 09-19-2008 at 10:51 AM. Reason: spelling!
it's all right, we have a whole life ahead!
and - although I don't give a fuck about what Mia says (she was a liar second only to Walter, and that in those cases where she wasn't herself genuinely mistaken), but to my mind, too, it follows of all the text that "saving the world" was at best secondary - more an excuse, I think, which Roland finally learned to take very seriously because he was taught from the very start to take seriosly whatever he was doing... and it fit his own character, too.
I still think that joining those she loved was more important for her than saving her own life, but the thought that she
is rather new to me, and I like it... it's another argument to be added to others I used to defend her decisionunderstood that the goal had already been accomplished
(if someone isn't tired of hearing it yet - Susannah is my favorite character in the DT, always keeping it in mind that Roland stands alone)
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting take on things Pere Callahan, and welcome to the site. I've read some of your other posts and I think you bring some valuable insights to the table.
I would however contend that the Tower was not yet saved after the Beam was made safe and Sai King's death avoided. There are other threads where this has come up, but here is a good enough place for me. Almost all DT-7 threads wind up coming around to this point sooner or later.
My contention is that with the CK on the balcony and Mordred on his way to the Tower, there is no guarantee that the Tower was safe. Had Roland cried off, Mordred would very likely have gone straight to the Tower and helped his Red Father get off the balcony and the two of them would have entered the Tower. Now, there is nothing but speculation as to what this might have meant for the Tower, but it is perfectly reasonable to speculate that this might not have been a positive development for the Tower.
I'm not even disagreeing with you necessarily that Susannah shouldn't have left when she did, but I don't believe Roland had saved the Tower prior to his killing of Mordred and his and Patrick's defeat of the CK.
Saving the Beam and Sai King may have delayed the demise of the Tower, but there is no telling what havoc could have been wreaked upon the arrival of Mordred and the CK at the front door.
R _ G_ -Those are great points regarding Mordred. I have to admit that i haven't given much consideration to his impact (or the Crimson King being trapped). Let me think about it for a while...
and thanks for the welcome ....so far I've been so busy trying to catch up on all the threads that I haven't posted much. I've been very impressed with your many ideas as I browse the site.
Jean- I've been reading your posts all over this site, and quite frankly, I am blown away with many of your theories. I don't always agree with you but the logic behind your ideas is always sound. You remind me very much of Euryon from the old dt.net site.
Take your time Pere Callahan. There are a lot of great threads around here to read.
Also, I agree with you completely, Jean's posts are among the most well thought out you will find.
You better hurry up, Pere, because I'm going to be deleting all the great threads in an hour.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
I believe that Cuthbert got shot through the eye with an arrow.
The words written upon this paper, are none compared to the words written upon my heart
And i agree. Jake and eddie represented Rolands original Ka-tet. There were many refrences stating that in the book. So in that sence they were destened to die. Roland knew that. You can see through similarities [i.e. Eddie getting shot through the eye much like Cuthbert, who he was often refrenced to, was shot through the eye with an arrow.
[ How again did Alain die? I forget but i'm just wondering if theres any conections/similarites between his and Jakes deaths ]
The words written upon this paper, are none compared to the words written upon my heart
Alain died...Spoiler:
Ah, so i supose that really isn't in any way similar to Jakes death, unless some one wants to make connection that i haven't been able to.Alain died...Spoiler:
The words written upon this paper, are none compared to the words written upon my heart
why didn't susannah have to die...ponderous, ponderous inquisition. i would say...
because she herself was the Drawing of the Three. A physical embodiment of it. She was Susannah Dead, Odetta Holmes, and Detta Walker. And that may have played an extrememly significant part. After all, King likes to play games and keep secrets, say true? Perhaps she was what the title of TDT II referred to all along.
...and, she was literally drawn out of Roland's world.
the only problem i have with the theory of it being because jake and eddie were reminiscent of cuthbert and alain is this:
in arguing that scenario, you must advance the theory that she embodied a new Susan, right down to the name, including (albeit inadvertently) being R.'s lover. therefore, by THAT theory, she should have suffered the most horrible death of them all.
I like the idea that Susannah "gets it", but I don't think there's any evidence of that in the books. At least I can't think of any off the top of my head. Moreover, if she does, then why not try to save Roland from himself? Why take the only life preserver and leave him in a sinking boat? Wouldn't that make her less noble? Shouldn't she try to help? Shouldn't not helping damn her in some way? It sure doesn't seem to given what she finds when she finally rolls through that door.it's all right, we have a whole life ahead!
and - although I don't give a fuck about what Mia says (she was a liar second only to Walter, and that in those cases where she wasn't herself genuinely mistaken), but to my mind, too, it follows of all the text that "saving the world" was at best secondary - more an excuse, I think, which Roland finally learned to take very seriously because he was taught from the very start to take seriosly whatever he was doing... and it fit his own character, too.
I still think that joining those she loved was more important for her than saving her own life, but the thought that she
is rather new to me, and I like it... it's another argument to be added to others I used to defend her decisionunderstood that the goal had already been accomplished
(if someone isn't tired of hearing it yet - Susannah is my favorite character in the DT, always keeping it in mind that Roland stands alone)
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
I think she understands that Roland will never change his mind. Mia tells Susannah that Roland's only true aim is to question the "being" at the top of the tower. I think she makes a decision that you cannot argue with irrationality. Also, I get the idea that she thinks that Roland may deserve a bad ending. She loves him, yet of the ka-tet she seems to understand the most that Roland is beyond "saving". He will do as he feels he must, regardless of logic.
Also, regarding Mordred, the fact that he was already dying made him much less of a threat (despite Oy's tragic end) I don't think Roland ever thought Mordred would be the end of him. I think he was no match for Roland. As for the Crimson King, we are lead to believe that without Roland's gun, he can never enter the Tower. This is many ways makes Roland's decision to pursue the tower even more foolish. Better to have the CK trapped outside than to give him his ticket to the Tower
Well, Mordred was dying because he ate Dandelo's horse, which was tainted/poison. Had Roland cried off after Blue Heaven as some have suggested he should, Mordred wouldn't have had to eat the horse. He could have made a nice meal out of Dandelo himself and had Patrick for dessert. He then could have proceeded to the Tower without illness.
As for needing the guns to get in to the Tower, if I'm not mistaken, what was actually required was some sigul of the Eld. Walter seemed to believe Mordred's heel would have met this requirement as he planned on taking it and entering for himself with no apparent plans to take Roland's guns.
So I am still of the opinion that had not Roland proceeded to the Tower, Mordred would have gotten there and met his Red Daddy and that would very likely not be a good situation for the Tower.
I agree with the above, though I am in no position at the moment to expand on it.
No need to expand Monte. "I agree with R_of_G" is always an acceptable answer.
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