The Dark Tower, Insomnia and Different Levels *Spoilers!!*

[Tik]

For my part I think of the physical Tower as being a Tower within a Tower. So, you can climb the levels inside the physical Tower as you would levels on any normal building, and they are pertinent to you and your life experiences. But at the same time, the metaphysical Tower and it's levels are at the same time an intangible place, where the physical Tower exists on a particular level of it.

Did that make sense? I sorta equate it to Buddha being everything and one being at the same time.

I think Insomnia was an attempt to explain the dueling metaphysical forces of the cosmology of King's universe while the Tower that Roland visits is simply All World's tangible representation. King was clear that the Dark Tower is represented differently in other worlds, particularly the rose in the Keystone and the back of a dog in a nameless world.

I don't see these different types of level as contradictory though. Remember when Walter explained the Tower to Roland. He stated something along the lines, the Tower is the epitomy of size. It's big. Infinitely so. It connects everything together and ecompasses everything. That means it contains all levels of all types in all dimensions.

I fully agree! This is basically what I thought the Tower was when reading the books.

Insomnia and the Dark Tower series idea of levels are not contridictory. In The Dark Tower each alternate world/universe is described as another level of the Tower. In Insomnia it is the unimaginable levels above these that the bald doctors are trying to explain to us short-timers.

For example, you can start on Earth A then walk through a door to an alternate Earth B - a different level of the Tower. Whilst on Earth B you, through a series of supernatural events, open up the way to a higher plane of consciousness - again, you are now on a different level of the Tower. The Tower is everything afterall.

Intrestingly when Blaine talks about the levels of the Tower he seems to be using them in an Insomnia sense rather than in the sense of the other Dark Tower novels - "IT IS PLAYED ON ONE OF THE UPPER LEVELS OF THE TOWER."

The whole thing made Roland's quest lose some of its significance for me, i.e., he wasn't sworn to find the Dark Tower, but a Dark Tower. Just a blade of grass, but not the blade of grass as originally foreshadowed.

All this shouldn't make you feel Rolands quest is not as significant though - it is quite clear the Dark Tower representation on Mid-World is unique. It is the only representation you can enter. It is the only one you can climb to the "room" above all of endless reality and meet God. In that respect it is very unique as you cant do that with any of the other representations (the rose, the Talisman, the ur-dog, etc).

It is also the only one that has been messed around by the Great Old Ones. North Central Positronics have made their representations of the Beams around the Dark Tower making it the only one to have them (eg the rose doesn't have Beam representations, etc, etc). This in turn makes the Dark Tower the only one you can attack successfully via destroying these Beam represntations that North Central Positronics created. It is the only one which the Crimson King can use to destroy reality itself.

This is why Rolands quest is so significant.

Merlin - always bear in mind that King presumably saw the same potential conflicts between these 2 Books, and therefore introduced Insomnia into the DT tale and discredited it as being relevant to the quest

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This I dont agree with at all. Insomnia was not discredited, Roland mearly thought it was a mind-trap. When Roland was tempted to take a picture of the Dark Tower with him, he explains why he didn't take Insomnia or the picture:

"...he had an idea that both of them might spend too much time looking at it. The picture might distract them or, even worse, hypnotise them.

In the end maybe its another mind-trap, he thought. Like Insomnia."

Roland fears that reading Insomnia will distract them from his quest. He will be obsessed with the book, leaving him wide open to an attack by Mordred. If Insomnia was truely irrelevent to the quest, Patrick Danville would not have been in DT7.

[Brainslinger]

While I think you're likely right with this....

It is also the only one that has been messed around by the Great Old Ones. North Central Positronics have made their representations of the Beams around the Dark Tower making it the only one to have them (eg the rose doesn't have Beam representations, etc, etc).

I don't think this is necesarily so:

[QUOTEThis in turn makes the Dark Tower the only one you can attack successfully via destroying these Beam represntations that North Central Positronics created. It is the only one which the Crimson King can use to destroy reality itself. [/quote]

There was a strong suggestion that if Say're's organisation had bought the Vacant Lot, they would have been able to destroy the rose. Not in the same way as the Tower, certainly, but, point is, the representation of the Tower in other worlds are still vulnerable. I agree that the Tower version may be the only version one can enter though.

On saying that (Talisman Spoilers):

Spoiler:

I have read suggestions that the Black Hotel from the Talisman might be another representation of the Tower in Jack's world. I disagree with that though. The Tower does seem to be fundamentally a good place while the Black Hotel was evil. If anything the Talisman itself is the closest representation to the Tower in that world, but I'm not sure that's quite right either, what with it being used up and all.

[pathoftheturtle]

...it is quite clear the Dark Tower representation on Mid-World is unique. It is the only representation you can enter. It is the only one you can climb to the "room" above all of endless reality and meet God. ...

However, it is not so clear that Mid-World itself is unique, in light of the ending. We see a new Roland in a new version of the desert. We might solve this by agreeing that the "one Mid-World" is not just a single universe but a whole series of alternates joined together along a fifth-dimensional axis. If there is a tower which has that highest room, it has not been reached yet, but it is possible that that is merely a higher level of the one we saw, not a completely separate entity in an entirely distinct world. Still, destroying any tower on any level of this greater Tower might bring down the entire house of cards.

However, IMHO, all of this really makes Roland's quest more significant, not less. If the multiverse made sense, and was arranged in a way that was orderly and safe, then Roland would be just wasting his time. Why confront God if all is right with the world?

The Talisman

...I have read suggestions that the Black Hotel from the Talisman might be another representation of the Tower in Jack's world. ...

Oh, no. Another book brought in... and another thread running willy-nilly.

[SPOIL="The Talisman"]...The Tower does seem to be fundamentally a good place.../SPOIL]

It does? You mean, The Dark Tower? I really don't know where you get that idea from. Oh, wait...

...the rose...the representation of the Tower in other worlds...

Okay, yeah; if you believe that then I can see how it might seem like a good place.

The Talisman

...If anything the Talisman itself is the closest representation to the Tower in that world...

Hm. Interesting. I'm not sure I agree, but it is a good thought.

The Talisman

Personally, I've always wondered if there's any connection between the Talisman and Maerlyn's Rainbow.

[Tik]

There was a strong suggestion that if Say're's organisation had bought the Vacant Lot, they would have been able to destroy the rose. Not in the same way as the Tower, certainly, but, point is, the representation of the Tower in other worlds are still vulnerable. I agree that the Tower version may be the only version one can enter though.

Oh, I quite agree that other representations of the Tower like the rose can be destroyed. However, while this probably causes untold destruction this act by itself cannot undo all of creation - the Beams are still there to hold reality in place while the other representations of the Tower take the burden. Its the Beams that are the weakness - destroying them AND the Tower is the only way to undo existance.

Remember why the Rose was so important to Rolands quest? It was because it was helping protect the Beam:

"You gut to take care of that Rose in New York, dont you?"

"Yes," Roland said.

"Because thats whats kep' one of those Beams safe while most of the others has been broken down by these what-do-you-call-em telepathics, the Breakers."

Eddie was amazed at how quickly and easily Cullum had grasped that....

The Rose is being used by the White to lessen the destructive power of the Breakers. If that Rose was destroyed the Beam would no longer be protected and the Beam would snap instantly due to the damage the Breakers have already done to it.

As for the Talisman:

Spoiler:

I agree that the Talisman itself is the representation of the Tower and not the Black Hotel. The way the Talisman is described makes this a certainty in my mind:

....he was in them, and in an infinite number of other worlds as well, and all at the same time. Nor was he simply in one place in all those worlds; he was in them everywhere because he was those worlds. The Talisman was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves - the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds....

And I dont think it was used up. It completed the task Jack had retrieved it for so Jack put it aside. When he tried looking for it later it had disappeared, possibly to a new hotel.

I dont think there is much connection between Maerlyns Rainbow and the Talisman except that the Talisman is the White and Maerlyns Rainbow is Maerlyns corruption of all the colours that make up white.

[mia/susannah]

For my part I think of the physical Tower as being a Tower within a Tower. So, you can climb the levels inside the physical Tower as you would levels on any normal building, and they are pertinent to you and your life experiences. But at the same time, the metaphysical Tower and it's levels are at the same time an intangible place, where the physical Tower exists on a particular level of it.

Did that make sense? I sorta equate it to Buddha being everything and one being at the same time.

Very well put. I totally agree!!!

[Brainslinger]

However, while this probably causes untold destruction this act by itself cannot undo all of creation - the Beams are still there to hold reality in place while the other representations of the Tower take the burden. Its the Beams that are the weakness - destroying them AND the Tower is the only way to undo existance.

I disagree. There is only one Tower, although it looks different in different worlds. But if you destroy it in one, it is destroyed in all.

As for the Beams, we know destroying the beams will bring down the Tower. However, I think it works the other way too. If you could destroy the Tower without breaking the beams first, the beams would automatically break. I see it as a circuit where the beams hold up the Tower and the Tower in turn feeds the beams. (I know there is more too it than that, what with the Beam portals, roses and all, but as I said it's a circuit.)

Remember why the Rose was so important to Rolands quest? It was because it was helping protect the Beam:

"You gut to take care of that Rose in New York, dont you?"

"Yes," Roland said.

"Because thats whats kep' one of those Beams safe while most of the others has been broken down by these what-do-you-call-em telepathics, the Breakers."

Eddie was amazed at how quickly and easily Cullum had grasped that....

The Rose is being used by the White to lessen the destructive power of the Breakers. If that Rose was destroyed the Beam would no longer be protected and the Beam would snap instantly due to the damage the Breakers have already done to it.

I think that's right, but that doesn't really contradict what I said. I am a bit confused as to what the Rose represents though as sometimes it seems to be the Tower itself, other times one of the Beams. However, since they're all codependent anyway, I guess it amounts to much the same thing.

As for the Talisman:

Spoiler:

I agree that the Talisman itself is the representation of the Tower and not the Black Hotel. The way the Talisman is described makes this a certainty in my mind:

....he was in them, and in an infinite number of other worlds as well, and all at the same time. Nor was he simply in one place in all those worlds; he was in them everywhere because he was those worlds. The Talisman was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves - the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds....

Yes I wondered about that too. I don't actually think it was the Tower though (I just mentioned that as an interesting theory others have mentioned.) Why? Because the Talisman appears to be the same in all worlds*, while the Tower appears different.

It's description in that passage is certainly close to that of the Tower though. I have an idea that while the Tower was around since it rose from the Prim, the talisman was an object created later. A powerful object with the essence of the Tower, maybe but not the Tower itself.

*I might be wrong about that though. It might just be the same in the two worlds of The Talisman, i.e. Jack's world and The Territories. I don't think that was the implication though.

And I dont think it was used up. It completed the task Jack had retrieved it for so Jack put it aside. When he tried looking for it later it had disappeared, possibly to a new hotel.

The outer shell was placed aside after the power had been used. That's the bit that vanished. I wouldn't discount the possibility that it regenerated elsewhere though, but I don't think so. I think the idea was that it was made to perform one marvelous function. It healed the Queen, and in effect the world too, as I think the Queen and the Territories are linked (much like the old idea of the King and the country being one, if the King is sick so is the country.) And since the Territories is also linked to our (well Jack's) world, that was saved too.

I dont think there is much connection between Maerlyns Rainbow and the Talisman except that the Talisman is the White and Maerlyns Rainbow is Maerlyns corruption of all the colours that make up white.

Yes that makes sense.

[obscurejude]

Nobody has to use spoiler tags in this thread, so please stop. Its getting damn confusing.

[Brice]

Yes, there is no need for spoiler tags for either the DT series or Insomnia in here. In fact it would be better if you didn't.

[Brainslinger]

Nobody has to use spoiler tags in this thread, so please stop. Its getting damn confusing.

We don't need spoiler tags if I'm talking about Dark Tower or Insomnia stuff. I was talking about stuff from The Talisman as well there*. That's the part I 'spoilerized' so to speak.

*Arguably off thread, for which I apologize. It seemed a natural flow of the conversation though, you know how it goes.

[obscurejude]

Nobody has to use spoiler tags in this thread, so please stop. Its getting damn confusing.

We don't need spoiler tags if I'm talking about Dark Tower or Insomnia stuff. I was talking about stuff from The Talisman as well there*. That's the part I 'spoilerized' so to speak.

*Arguably off thread, for which I apologize. It seemed a natural flow of the conversation though, you know how it goes.

It was just getting hard to follow Brainslinger and I enjoy reading your thoughts as well as many others in this thread. No need to apologize, man. Its all good.