I've merged this thread with the main "Saved or damned" thread, because it's discussing the exact same thing
Saved: the next loop is the last before final salvation
Saved: after a number of loops
Saved (neither of the above: give your own version)
Damned: the next loop is the last before final damnation
Damned: stuck in the eternal loop forever
Damned (neither of the above: give your own version)
I've merged this thread with the main "Saved or damned" thread, because it's discussing the exact same thing
And I still won't vote bc despite my feeling that he is going to loop eternally, I don't think of it as damnation.
I think Roland is dammed forever until he does what his arch rival has bid him to do from the very beginning. "Renounce the Tower."
I think apart of the test for the Tower is also to forgive and forget, and in so Roland must forgive Flagg for what he has done in his past, and abide by his warning or face the consequence, stuck on the Loop for all eternity.
Sure he can save the beams, but if he saves the beams, his job is done, he doesn't need to go to the Tower....I think not reaching the Tower is actually apart of his test also.
So he is stuck on the Loop until he renounces the Tower me thinks (:
Damned: stuck in the eternal loop forever
Same reasons.
Looks like you've done a few merges and edits since I been gone, Darkthoughts. I really like the way you've handled them, for the most part.
Well, we were also discussing the nature of God, and Gan's motives, before the merge. I guess this topic ties strongly, as well, to theTown Commons thread Gan = God? and to razz's "What's Roland's salvation?" thread right in this forum.Originally Posted by R_of_G
Honestly, I haven't voted here either, not because I differ on the premise of damnation, but just 'cause I'm unsure what to make from Jean's options.
This one's sure a thinker.
ThanksLooks like you've done a few merges and edits since I been gone, Darkthoughts. I really like the way you've handled them, for the most part.I tried to err on the side of caution, but merging is very more-ish
Er, I didn't really know how to vote. I said Saved because we already know that he can overcome his killer instinct and become human again. But I don't think the journey will ever end for Roland, so in a way Damned. I think he is as important to the worlds as the tower.
As the wheel of Ka spins, Roland travels. As Roland travels, Ka spins. If Roland stops (dies or finds salvation) Ka stops and the worlds end. All falls into Todash darkness.
My answer is neither saved nor damned, at least not yet...
If you read the comics (they weren't written by Stephen King, but they are OK'd by him) At the end of each issue there are basically mid-world history lessons...
and i quote the last paragraph
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
So he is neither saved, nor damned, he is merely still on his way!
Last edited by Bumbler19; 01-28-2009 at 01:19 AM. Reason: put spoiler tags around the comic parts.... i guess they belong in spoiler tags XD
That's a good way of putting it. He may be "on his way" but do you think he ever arrives at the destination? I say no. I still think that if Ka is a wheel, Roland and the tower are the axle.
Hmm I never thought of Roland as an Axle
Well maybe he isn't so much of an Axle as a permanent guardian because he has no child of his own (besides Mordred) and he is the last gunslinger, he is charged to continuously protect the tower by himself. As it is those of the line of Eld's sworn duty, to protect the tower.
Bumbler19 - I really like your observations from the comics. I'd noticed something similar in The Gunslinger Born #1. In the backstory there it says:
Spoiler:
So I'm wondering if Roland won't be redeemed until he saves the Tower in every world. So, each time he loops, he's doing so on a slightly different level of the Tower?
I say yes. I always think that the number 19 has some sort of parallel to what repetition Roland is on. I like to think that at the end of the epilogue he starts number 20. So maybe this time the number left by Walter in Tull is 20. And taht number is significantly prevalent this time around.
Do You Folks Like Coffee?
Real Coffee,
From the Hills Of Colombia?
The Duncan Hills awake you
from a thousand deaths.
A cup of blackened blood.
(Die, Die)
You're dying for a cup.
yup, i've been thinking about that exact thing myself.
Quite definitely a possibility, but who is to say for sure ya know?I say yes. I always think that the number 19 has some sort of parallel to what repetition Roland is on. I like to think that at the end of the epilogue he starts number 20. So maybe this time the number left by Walter in Tull is 20. And taht number is significantly prevalent this time around.
Of course, Bumbler. It's all speculation: my own supposed appendix to the series. Unless of course I was actually SK marauding as a Dark Tower Fan.
Do You Folks Like Coffee?
Real Coffee,
From the Hills Of Colombia?
The Duncan Hills awake you
from a thousand deaths.
A cup of blackened blood.
(Die, Die)
You're dying for a cup.
I believe that roland and his entire ka-tet (including those from his past, so jamie, cuthbert and alain must also come to the tower) must make it to the tower in order for him to break free of the loop. I also believe that SK skipped to the mohaine desert when really roland begins his life from the point where he saw the tower in maerlyn's grapefruit, as that is where his quest began. He must protect his Ka tet and keep them alive to continue on after reaching the tower.
Well, this might be better suited to our "That Thing..." thread, but what about the line that says that he is not sent back to very beginning, when things could still have been different?
he is not ready to be sent back to the beginning, as he has not proven worthy enough to change what happened.
Dont you think its posible that Roland is actualy a part of the tower, a kind of keystone that holds time in place, and it is therefore necesary for him to complete his quest in-perpetua in order to maintain the fabric of the universe.Maybe on some level he is aware, Roland states several times that he is allready damned. Its paradoxical that the choices Roland does make are necesary for him to reach the tower, if he had'nt sacraficed Jake, would he have had his palaver with Flag, and would the events necesary for him to reach the tower have been set in motion. It reminds me of a quote i once read...looking for the answer, "its like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat, that is'nt there". Its a good discusion point, but I doubt even Mr King has a solid resolution.
That's some catch, that Catch-22.
If Roland's quest for salvation is exactly what keeps him in damnation, then the question becomes whether maintaining the fabric of the universe is, itself, really necessary."The necessity for one thing to happen because another thing has happened does not exist. There is only logical necessity."
-- L. Wittgenstein,
Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
I believe anyone's salvation is in what he is, not what he does. What he does, though, has its roots in what he is, so his quest isn't entirely foreign to the matter. I always thought, though, that it's all about Roland rather than the universe; the saving of the universe is instrumental in his salvation, but 1) not sufficient - and, perhaps, not necessary - for it; 2) the same principle doesn't work the other way.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"salavation"Can you prove that?
Even if it is true, changes to the basic order of the universe might result if Roland ceased.
mikatile: One of the Buddha's Four Noble Truths is that it is possible to escape from suffering. When he first said that, it was big news.
I don't know about megaknight, but I do think that what you've described is possible. However, the idea always leads me, first, to a question which has been asked on this thread before: Why would Gan do that?
Ka is a wheel
that Roland has traveled longer than any of us can imagine
i believe everytime he gets closer to the end
and now its his final round on the wheel
and the tower knows that he serves it
and protects it
he shall find salvation
Long days and Pleasant nights
There is the theory that the cycle is the 18th time Roland has been around the wheel, and now that he has the Horn of Eld, this will be his final time, and he will finaly be allowed to enter the clearing, I like this theory. In Brownings poem Roland blows the Horn when he reaches the tower, but it says nothing of him actually entering the tower, I think that Roland realises that saving the beam is enough, and entering the tower is not necesary. In other words he realises- curiosity killed the cat.
For my part I am absolutely sure that Roland can reach the Tower without sacraficing Jake. Sometimes when you think or feel something is oh so necessary it only comes from you.
Roland would have understood.
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