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Thread: Gan=God? (Not a religious discussion) **Spoilers**

  1. #26
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    I think that SK wanted us to compare and contrast God and Gan: Unless you believe that none of the horrors of the multiverse in his novels are any worse than the horrors of the real world, it would seem that his fictional Creator is not equal.

    IMHO, razz, Walter is indeed wrong about the top of the Tower being empty, and I do think that Gan is good... but I'm not absolutely sure, by any means. It is a good question, and a tough one to answer on the sole basis of King's novels.

  2. #27
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    Ah, you're right--it is a little difficult to figure out if Gan is all good or not...but I would venture to say this makes Gan even more like the God most Christians accept--is He all good? The God of the Old Testament was Vengeful and angry--things Christians accept as "bad".

    Food for thought.
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  3. #28
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    I think trying to attach labels like "good" or "evil" to a force of nature, albeit a fictional one like Gan is a bit short sighted, but it's a common thing for people to humanize large natural concepts to make them easier to grasp.

    Gan isn't good or bad, Gan merely is.

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    p.s. I hope the term "short-sighted" doesn't offend, but it's the only word to describe what I was saying. To assume Gan has "good" or "evil" qualities is to assume a lot of things we simply don't know.

    A) assumes Gan has a personality
    B) assumes Gan has free will
    C) assumes Gan has human qualities, such as emotions to base these "good" or "evil" qualities on.

    I hope I am making sense!!!

  5. #30
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    I'm following you.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ves'Ka Gan View Post
    Food for thought.
    Sure is.

    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    ...and razzle, there's no way this is not going to turn into a religious discussion on some level. but i think we're really discussion father callahan's religion. mayhap the religion of the entire series.
    Yes, it's different if we focus on discussing our different takes on the religious ideas in TDT than it would be if we got too far into our different RL beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    ...the power of the cross comes from the belief that the cross has power, just like the power of any religious symbol. ...
    I wouldn't put it quite that way; seems to imply that the power comes from the believer, which, I think, tends to contradict your view (that I very much agree with) that:
    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    ..i think that the father callahan who was sober and really, firmly grasped the idea that there was a power higher than himself (be it god, gan, the turtle, the bear, whatever) was willing and able to throw aside the cross and stand on his own. but when that happened, he wasn't on his own.
    Spoiler:
    in the lot, even holding the cross, he was on his own. he was abandoned by god because he had abandoned god.
    I think the turning point was
    Song of Susannah
    Until then, he still showed signs of the sin of pride, pride in his own tradition, and his own idea of God. True faith involves being open to truths which men cannot control.

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    Okay, this is a spoiler thread, so enough with the damn spoiler tags!
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    I'm following you.
    Haha sweet. Thanks.

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    Makes me wonder about when one of the Three Kings says "Big Red was always the crazy side of Gan" something along those lines.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Ahhh, like the Crimson King and Gan are two aspects of the same being?

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    More like Discordia or the Prim is a part of Gan too or maybe they are linked in some way. If you notice one of the windows at the top of the Dark Tower seems to represent Black 13. Also, Roland noticed that color of the roses mixed with the blood of eld was the same shade of crimson as those of the the Red King.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  12. #37
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    I'm glad you brought up that quote Matthew. To me it signifies that Gan, like "God" is not Good or Evil or any other category of description. Gan is transcendent of categories, beyond description. Los is part of Gan as all is part of Gan. It's a pretty common metaphor in religion.

  13. #38
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    pathoftheturtle you make an excellent point about father callahan facing black 13 and how it changed his viewpoint on certain matters. i'm not sure that he was still as arrogant as he was in the lot when he faced black 13 but it's possible that some of that arrogance remained even after everything he had been through during his travels and his death.

    but facing black 13 would sure as hell take that out of anyone. plus, facing the cave of voices. that would certainly take the arrogance out of anyone. facing the two together might well unhinge a normal man, the father did well to survive it.

  14. #39
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    pathoftheturtle you make an excellent point about father callahan facing black 13...
    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    ...i'm not sure that he was still as arrogant as he was in the lot when he faced black 13 but it's possible that some of that arrogance remained even after everything he had been through during his travels and his death. ...
    That’s all I’m saying, yes, based on his actions in WotC. Certainly, I do think that he had progressed a great deal, but it often happens that little lessons add up to a major breakthrough, making big changes seem sudden. That scene in the hotel is really pivotal to the padre’s character: we see much in his thoughts and prayers there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diggity Of The Eld View Post
    p.s. I hope the term "short-sighted" doesn't offend, but it's the only word to describe what I was saying. To assume Gan has "good" or "evil" qualities is to assume a lot of things we simply don't know.

    A) assumes Gan has a personality
    B) assumes Gan has free will
    C) assumes Gan has human qualities, such as emotions to base these "good" or "evil" qualities on.

    I hope I am making sense!!!
    I think it may be just that you’re assuming more than I do about the concept of good.

    I wasn’t actually asserting any of those points, but I did indeed wish to raise the questions for this thread. I would say that it’s short-sighted to jump to the conclusion that Gan does not have a personality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diggity Of The Eld View Post
    ...When Roland means to boldly walk into the Tower and demands it open before him, he is speaking directly to Gan.

    A presumptuous tone to take with Gan, regardless of who Roland is.... and one of many reasons why Gan chose to push him through the turnstile just one more time...
    “Chose” …? Doesn’t that imply free will?
    If Gan is simply a force of nature, then why should it take it personally if someone tries to tame it?

    And, what I’d really like to know is, does Gan always make the best choices? (Or, if you prefer, perform the natural functions analagous to choices, in some way that humanity might consider positive.) If the Tower is not all-wise and doesn’t care well for mankind, then what’s wrong with Roland’s attitude? Is it just that he should not dare to challenge Gan’s power?

  15. #40
    She gave me a pen. Ves'Ka Gan is on a distinguished road Ves'Ka Gan's Avatar

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    Path--you are making excellent points!

    I think this conversation is turning into a path (no pun intended) where it will be interesting to see where people's opinions stand. I don't beleive there is any right or wrong answer. I choose to believe that Gan is more than a force of nature, if Gan were only a force of nature, would Gan need a name? Or would Gan be "nature"?
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ves'Ka Gan View Post
    Path--you are making excellent points!

    I think this conversation is turning into a path (no pun intended) where it will be interesting to see where people's opinions stand. I don't beleive there is any right or wrong answer. I choose to believe that Gan is more than a force of nature, if Gan were only a force of nature, would Gan need a name? Or would Gan be "nature"?
    Gods don't need names. Men need them to have them though.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  17. #42
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    I instantly thought of this thread when rereading the comics this week.

    I think we can safely assume that Gan is good and of the White, because the worlds he creates are innocent and good in nature. It's not until Maerlyn rises from the Prim that evil starts to invade the worlds.

    In this respect Gan does mirror God. We could then speculate that Maerlyn mirrors the Devil - tempting man into evil and misdeeds, but the comics say that the CK is the devil/anti-christ (known by many names on different levels of the Tower). It's all a bit contradictory/confusing...but that's DT for ya

    Unlike God though, Gan doesn't claim to be the creator of everything. He is a being of the Prim, like Maerlyn. He creates all possible worlds, but he hasn't created the fabric of existance itself.

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    I am not sure if I could say Gan is good, but I would agree she/he/it is Maybe of the white. But only if you consider the 'current' reality the Tower holds together the white. When the Prim receeded the duality of light/dark white/red began. Maybe Roland will introduce a third element in the balance of the Tower if he ever breaks the loop. I don't think Gan cares one way or the other - as long as the balance is held. But I will have to read the Graphic Novels to see if there is more information to change my perception.

  19. #44
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    Welcome, noja! Glad to have you contributing to our Town Commons. I'd like to see more discussion of those ideas about "the current reality." It's not so easy to define what "current" even signifies when there's already so much time-travel involved.
    As for Gan, I think you're right on at least one point: unlike Jehovah, there's much about which he apparently does not care one way or the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    ...We could then speculate that Maerlyn mirrors the Devil - tempting man into evil and misdeeds...
    ...Except that the Laughing Mirror appears to distort human perception beyond the level Satan has the power to do. In the Judeo-Christian model, it was the knowledge of good and evil that led to mankind's fall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    ...Unlike God though, Gan doesn't claim to be the creator of everything. He is a being of the Prim, like Maerlyn. He creates all possible worlds, but he hasn't created the fabric of existance itself.
    Absolutely key. Gan cannot claim highest authority, cannot have absolute power, is not "the Prime Mover, unmoved"...

  20. #45
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Gan cannot claim highest authority, cannot have absolute power, is not "the Prime Mover, unmoved"...
    Massive cool points for quoting Aristotle.

    That's all I'm capable of quoting at this wii hour.

  21. #46
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    Thanks, Ryan. And don't worry; I totally understand you not wanting to get into it more: I get a little blurry myself when I play the Wii for hours.

    To further clarify my point about the devil, in Christian theology he wants to get us to choose evil, in order to disgrace and displease the Lord, to Whom our opinion matters. In the TDT comics, though, making Gan look bad is apparently a lost cause, and Maerlyn really only cares about controlling things in the here and now, ruining the known multiverse. There's little concept of a final judgment or a higher order. The moral is given, prosaically, that we can choose to be good, but the back stories in The Gunslinger's Guidebook don't really make this sound possible. Get infected by the Mirror and, presto, you are evil... which would make sense, if your perceptions are all reversed.

    Stephen King showed some pretty half-baked theology in Danse Macabre, but I think that he's grown wiser through his years of heavy reading. Mia, in DT6, brings up that she does not know if God created magic or if magic created God, and says that that is a question for the scholars. I think it was a good idea to leave it vague; there are scholars reading who understand all of the implications there. Yet, again, Robin Furth prefers to treat the DT mythology literally, as if Mid-World were an independent fantasy, like Middle Earth. This makes it all a more distinct work, but also less relevant.

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    Banned shannaawarp is on a distinguished road

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    Thank you for the auspicious writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it. Look advanced to more added agreeable from you! By the way, how can we communicate? I'll just check back at www.thedarktower.org for you later. poker room

  23. #48
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    Gan is good
    Gan is great
    Gan will grow again...

  24. #49
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    If Gan is not God then what is Gan? If the Dark Tower is not Gan then what is the Dark Tower? Seriously, maybe someone could explain details of alternative theory.
    Some people believe in a conscious Being who judges between good and evil. Other people believe in an unconscious Force that maintains karmic balance. But why should these groups have to argue? Just what difference does it make?

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    It makes all the difference in all universes to some people.

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