I would've sworn I said similar earlier. I guess I didn't hit submit.
I would've sworn I said similar earlier. I guess I didn't hit submit.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
This is a question I have no answer for, or rather I have a lot of answers.Originally Posted by Ves'Ka Gan
I do not remember the first time I read it - it's a book I've been reading all my life, and all times I remember seem already to be rereads; I think it's my first "serious" book, immediately after Winnie-the-Pooh and Mary Poppins. I know I read it before I went to school, so I must have been about six? Even that wasn't the first time, though, because even before I could read such a long and complicated story, my Grandmother - you might remember her from my other posts - used to tell that story to me. It's one of the first stories in my life, and I sincerely do not remember hearing it the first time.
I was no older than five, that's for sure; during our long walks in those shabby miserable parks of those Soviet times, she told me my favorite stories, and Mockingbird was the very favorite; I don't even think she adapted it much, though she told it the way I could understand. When later I read it, I recognized everything, and everything was just the way she told it.
I reread it a countless number of times during the first twenty years of my life; it's one of the books I know by heart - but in Russian. So, when we started talking about Book Club, I knew what book we must start with; I thought I had a copy in English somewhere (had never gotten around to reading it because of the paper - it was cheap Soviet edition with the kind of paper that gives me goosebumps). Well, I lobbied Mockingbird for the club, only to find that I didn't have that copy any more. I turned everything upside down, here and at my mother's place - no trace of the book.
I walked across the city, planning my route the way I was going to pass by the biggest bookstores, the ones I could hope to find almost anything in any language; especially, I though, such a classic would have to be there.
No luck at the first bookstore; none at the second... none at the third, that was the biggest of them all; now I only had the Bookhouse before me, and the books there are horribly expensive. I was moving in its direction along Nevsky Prospect, when something caught my eye in a big bookstore I had never thought sold books in foreign languages; it wasn't anything specific, rather an impression that there might be something to the store I hadn't noticed before.
I came in; the store was bigger than I thought; I walked and walked and suddenly saw something that made me feel sure I would find what I was looking for. It was a big shelf dedicated to bear books - Paddington in various editions, and Winnie-the-Pooh, and some other bears I had never even heard of.
After that, of course, it was a cinch... I confidently walked into the foreign languages department, took Mockingbird off the shelf, paid and left. Easy.
Now, the most delicious part... reading for the hundredth time, and yet for the first time, because this time it was in English... after all those years, after knowing it by heart, every word of it!
I was astounded... it wasn't the first time I read a book in the original after knowing every word of it in the Russian translation, but somehow it never gets old.
Everything was the same. Every letter, every intonation, every inflection, every breath, everything. When my only language was Russian, some great people, translators, made me a great present of the world's literature, without ruining an atome of it, but making it sound as if it was written in Russian, and written wonderfully. Even not knowing any other language but my own, I wasn't robbed of anything; Scout and Boo (oh I wish I could explain at least how greatly those names were translated!) were part of my childhood and of my verbal universe as much as they could be part of the universe of any English-speaking child.
And another thing... From the age of (presumably) five when my Grandmother told me this story, till the age of 44 when I read it now, many changes have come over your bear... Well, Mockingbird is the only book I know where nothing changed. I may understand more - intellectually - but I laugh and cry at the same things, and the same things amaze me, and as I used to accept all moral, existential, or social ideas and principles the author stands on, so I accept them now. However much I have changed, Harper Lee speaks about things that never changed for me, and it's the only book I can say that about.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's a wonderful story, Jean. Thanks for sharing it with us.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beginning disclaimer: I haven't read any of you guys comments yet, but I got this book Thursday evening and finished it Saturday morning, that's how enamored I was. I can't believe I never read it before.
1. How and when did you first come to read To Kill A Mockingbird?
This was my first time reading Mockingbird and I'm very glad I did... and appalled that I never read it before.. I was cheated.
2. Why does Atticus say that it's a sin to kill a mockingbird?
Because mockingbirds do no harm to anyone or anything. The only thing they do is make beautiful music.
3. Why do you think that killing a mockingbird is the only thing in the entire book, in the children's entire lives, that Atticus condemns as a sin?
I think it is because Atticus understands that there is very little true innocence. And I believe the mockingbird is actually a metaphor for innocence. Atticus is a good man and a lawyer, he has dedicated his life to protecting the innocent and what his proverb tells us is that it is a sin to condemn the innocent. To Atticus Tom Robinson was a mockingbird because he had never actually harmed anyone. I think Scout was too young to understand the message at first, but I believe Jem got it because he didn't want to shoot any birds after that.
4. Who is your favorite minor character in the book?
Are there any minor characters in this book? It seems that everyone had a pivotal role in the story.. If I had to pick someone that would be considered a minor character I think it would be either Cal or Miss Maudie. To me they are two sides of the same coin. They both were not afraid to stand up to their peers and they loved Scout and Jem almost as if they were their own.
5. What are three memorable moments in the book?
1) when Scout and Jem follow Atticus to the jailhouse. 2) when Miss Maudie's house burns down. 3) the TRIAL
6. What is the most touching moment of the book?
There are two for me. The first is Jem trying to cope with the verdict that the jury came to for Tom Robinson and people trying to explain to him how it isn't right but it's how it is for now. The second is when Scout realizes who her rescuer is and plays out her little fantasy about Boo Radley.
7. What is the most shocking moment of the book?
I think I may have been shocked that Mr. Ewell actually attacked Jem and Scout.. I mean, I kind of expected it but I did not think he would actually do it. I just didn't believe the man was that crazy.
I thank you all for this push to read this. I am forever indebted.
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
This was actually a question that was submitted to me thatI was "saving" for later--but since you brought it up, I am glad you did--I would love to hear others thoughts and input on this.
For instance, why do you think it was so important to Atticus to take this case even knowing the trouble it would cause him & his children? He says it is because he could never tell them to do anything if he didn't take this case and I think thatbeing the explaination he gives over & over says a lot about him but I do wonder why he never goes any further into the reasons he feels that way.
YOU MUST CHILL. I HAVE HIDDEN YOUR KEYS.
Atticus was the type of person who could not sit idlely by while an injustice was being done. He felt he HAD to do something, even though he was realistic enough that he knew he was doomed to failure. He succeeded because the jury took so long to come back with the guilty verdict. He managed to show his courage to his children by doing this. You do the right thing no matter what the popular thing is.
John
Great response, John.
I also think that it shows, rather thant tells Jem & Scout how he feels about racism. He never scolds them for using the word "nigger" and he doesn't even really explain to Scout what "nigger" or "nigger lover" means when she asks him...but by taking the case in spite of the family & townspeople's opinions he shows them.
Further I think the reason he never explains the word to Scout may have something to do with the idea that a word that ignorant isn't worth an explaination (but that's just how I read it).
YOU MUST CHILL. I HAVE HIDDEN YOUR KEYS.
Moreover, Jem and Scout are critical thinkers, even at their ages. That, combined with a father like Atticus and his teaching by way of example rather than criticism, gives them the tools they need to reason it out to the end.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
I agree with what every has said so far about Atticus and his reason for taking Tom's case. I thought it was interesting that he didn't scold Scout for her use of the word, but understood that he knew he could teach her better by showing her that it was wrong than by telling. From what I can understand about those times, though, that was just the way things were and that was why Scout couldn't understand the gravity of the situation. Like when she was trying to explain to Dill why the prosecutor was being such a dick.
and i think i may have been wrong on the most touching moment for me. i was extremely touched when Dill started to cry in the court because of the way the prosecutor was talking to Tom.
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
I agree, but we must also remember that this book is told in "flashback" so to speak, by an ADULT Scout.... so, of course, the thinking and the responses are going to have a more adult feel, even if they were children when things happened.
I think a lot of folks forget that. Some people have said they have an issue with how adult Jem and Scout are, and I'm always quick to reply that it is an Adult who is telling us this story, so of course, it's going to come off that way, that they are more mature, just because the words of an adult are being used.
The Man In Black Fled Across The Desert...
...And The Gunslinger Followed.
“I’m always on the Batman rule, sir.” - Kate Kane / Detective Comics 857
"It is the story, not he who tells it." Except to us collectors who have to put limits somewhere. - jhanic
Remember, Remember, The Fifth of November, The Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot.
ohhh... i hadn't even thought of that really... i just assumed that they were more mature because of the way Atticus raised them. it seemed perfectly natural to me... maybe because i was one of those children that matured very early. but that does make perfect sense that the story is being told by an adult anyway... i still think they were way more mature than their peers though, because of Atticus' ways.
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
When I read it before this very last time, I didn't even think anything about that - it happened because it happened, and, as I told before, I knew it long before I read it... you know how it is with the books you've known since forever, you just take everything for granted, you don't think someone actually wrote it and it could be different... till this last time I reread it a week ago. I remember reading and getting goosebumps all over my ursine bulk, - how can he, how can he let them walk in the dark alone?! how can he, how can aunt Alexandra, if they know Ewel is after Atticus?
And then I realized. Atticus - or Alexandra - or anybody in Maycomb, Alabama of 1935 - could never imagine anyone going after children to get even with their father; something that would seem so inevitable, - fuck, almost natural! - to me now in St.Petersburg, Russia of 2008.
That's what Bob Ewel does, and that's what puts him outside any hope for our compassion or pity; and doing so, he justifies Arthur the once and forever, so much so that the little reader doesn't even question if it was all right to kill in this situation. It was perfectly all right, because what Ewel did was not only unforgivable, it was unthinkable.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Absolutely, turtlex, but I feel they do have a maturity beyond there peers, as beam noted. For example, Scout mentions Jem reading law magazines as young as fourth grade - nothing to sneeze at for sure.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
Oh, I agree completely, these are children who are very grown-up, even as they are revelling in their childhood.
The Man In Black Fled Across The Desert...
...And The Gunslinger Followed.
“I’m always on the Batman rule, sir.” - Kate Kane / Detective Comics 857
"It is the story, not he who tells it." Except to us collectors who have to put limits somewhere. - jhanic
I think maybe a reason the children are more mature than their peers is the fact that they are being raised by Atticus and Atticus alone. He may get flack from his sister on their raising, but he seems like that type of father that loves his children dearly--but sometimes forgets they are children.
YOU MUST CHILL. I HAVE HIDDEN YOUR KEYS.
Um, aren't they being raised by Atticus and Cal ?
She's the one who reprimands Scout when she mentions Walter's syrup use. She's the one Atticus turns to when he needs someone to look after his kids.
I think Cal is raising them as well.
The Man In Black Fled Across The Desert...
...And The Gunslinger Followed.
“I’m always on the Batman rule, sir.” - Kate Kane / Detective Comics 857
"It is the story, not he who tells it." Except to us collectors who have to put limits somewhere. - jhanic
True, I thought of that midway through my post, but as much as Cal is a figure in their lives, I think she does maintain that professional detachment that would be expected at that time.
The point I am trying to make is that for the most part, Atticus speaks to them as he would speak to an adult, and when it comes to big questions and big lessons, it is more Atticus "teaching" them than it is Cal. It seems like (in the context of the book, at least) Cal seems to reprimand when necessary and treat them every now & then, not actually make a point of creating "teaching moments" (although I am positive they have learned almost as much from Cal as they did from their father).
::hopes I clarified my point rather than muddling it more::
YOU MUST CHILL. I HAVE HIDDEN YOUR KEYS.
i see what you're saying ves. cal treated them as children in her role in the house. i think atticus tended to forget they were children and treated them a mini-adults. he expected them to understand things and when they didn't he sat them down and explained the things to them without talking down to them or belittling them or their intelligence. i just don't picture atticus in my head as the "baby-talk" kind of father, you know?
Oh, I love that, turtlesong - that Atticus forgot they were children. It is like that, isn't it. Almost like he did just think of them as mini-adults. That's very insightful and I honestly never thought of Atticus that way.
Ves - for sure you've clarified, and not muddled. But.. I would ask then, what exactly is Cal's position? I mean, is she a housekeeper? Or a babysitter? Or ... what would she be, exactly? Nanny?
I do understand what you're saying about Atticus and I agree. No way on the "baby-talk" for sure.
The Man In Black Fled Across The Desert...
...And The Gunslinger Followed.
“I’m always on the Batman rule, sir.” - Kate Kane / Detective Comics 857
"It is the story, not he who tells it." Except to us collectors who have to put limits somewhere. - jhanic
i think i thought of Cal as a mother figure. i'm sure this is probably because of my racial background... i learned in class that black parents tend to be more discipline-based than white parents... it was in an educational psych book. it said the black students usually respond better to direct commands than suggestions. so i think Cal treated Scout and Jem as she would her own children. that professional detachment is really just part of the parenting... my mom was never really affectionate.
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
Every time you use words or phrases like "mother/father figure", "midlife crisis", "significant other", "liberating experience", "repressed", "inhibitions" etc, you kill a grizzly bear.
Luckily, he resurrects as soon as you come back to expressing yourself in your own words, coming from your own mind, heart, soul, and experience.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this discussion is fascinating!!
Very good showing on the first book club read you guys.
I believe Atticus was a Gunslinger personally. In every way that ever mattered.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
does clapping help?
or is that just for fairies?
this discussion is fascinating!!
Very good showing on the first book club read you guys.
I believe Atticus was a Gunslinger personally. In every way that ever mattered.
Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
This comment makes me think of what Atticus tells Jem about helping Mrs. Dubose break her morphine habit before death about how there are better ways to be heroic without firing a gun...(horrible paraquoting, I know).
YOU MUST CHILL. I HAVE HIDDEN YOUR KEYS.
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