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Thread: Environmentalism & Hunting

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    Servant of Gan e_taylor will become famous soon enough e_taylor's Avatar

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    Default Environmentalism & Hunting

    The only reason I'm starting this thread is because I have vowed to stay out of the politics thread, and I'm a man of my word.

    .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Woofer View Post
    I had to come back and post this. I knew Sarah Palin supports aerial wolf hunting because I signed a petition sponsored by one of the wolf preservation organizations to which I belong. I didn't realize she also supports aerial bear hunting. State-sponsored, too.

    WARNING: Disturbing images of wolves being shot.

    Sarah Palin Champions Barbaric Aerial Hunting of Wolves

    *sigh* Really off to work now.

    Although I agree that aerial hunting seems very inhumane; I think its important to note that hunters/fishers are some of the few champions of the environment and animals that have any clout to do anything. Environmentalist hippies will stage protests trying to get government and big business on board to protect animals and their habitat, but fail miserably. Hunters have actually given their own time and money to actually make a difference.

    For example, Ducks Unlimited was started by duck hunters who not so much cared about wetlands, but wanted the duck population to be sustainable.

    Another example, the seal hunt we have here in Canada, that gets celebrities denouncing us every year (mainly because they don't know the facts) is the only reason the seal population had remained so high and has been a sustainable industry for over 600 years. Its in the seal hunters' best interests to make sure there are an equal number, or more seals each year.

    So, what I'm saying, is although hunting isn't always viewed in the greatest light; hunters often are the only ones who care enough about animal populations and their habitats to do anything about it. That said, I'll have to look more into this particular case, as the $150 bounty baffles me - unless wolves are considered a "menace", or are hugely overpopulated, it doesn't make sense.

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    Au Naturale theBeamisHome is on a distinguished road theBeamisHome's Avatar

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    hmmm... well i'm not sure i would call myself an environmentalist hippie, but i have a hard time stomaching animals being shot from planes for sport. and while i understand what you're saying about hunters trying to keep populations up, they're doing it for selfish reasons. they try to keep populations up so that they'll have something else to hunt. not because they actually care about the animals.. that's my opinion anyway. i can't imagine that they particularly care about the animals if they're just shooting them for sport. I can understand if you need what you hunt for food or clothing and that you respect the animal that you have just killed. there was nothing respectful about what those people were doing. it saddened and sickened me.

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theBeamisHome View Post
    hmmm... well i'm not sure i would call myself an environmentalist hippie, but i have a hard time stomaching animals being shot from planes for sport. and while i understand what you're saying about hunters trying to keep populations up, they're doing it for selfish reasons. they try to keep populations up so that they'll have something else to hunt. not because they actually care about the animals.. that's my opinion anyway. i can't imagine that they particularly care about the animals if they're just shooting them for sport. I can understand if you need what you hunt for food or clothing and that you respect the animal that you have just killed. there was nothing respectful about what those people were doing. it saddened and sickened me.
    The environmentalist hippie wasn't directed at you. But thats the thing, people don't do anything effectively unless they have something to gain. Why is it that the only successful environmental efforts have come from those that rely on animals for their livelihood (seal hunt) or for sport (Ducks Unlimited)?

    What significant accomplishment can PETA or Green Peace claim?

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    There are many many environmental/conservation groups at work besides PETA and Greenpeace. Incidentally, many of these are not comprised of "hippies" which is a sociology term about a very specific group of people at a very specific time period.

    You asked for accomplishments...

    Let's take the Environmental Defense Fund as an example.

    - The group, founded in the mid-60's facilitated the banning of DDT as a pesticide in New York and then nationally.

    - Led efforts to have hunted whales added to the Endangered Species list in the U.S.

    - Performed a study of the Mississippi River which led to the Safe Drinking Water Act

    - Designed Title IV of the Clean Air Act, which incorporates market-based methods to cut air pollution and reduce sulfur dioxide pollution faster than expected, and at a fraction of the cost.

    -Co-authored the California Global Warming Solutions Act of 2006

    - Invention of the Safe Harbor concept which led to additions to the Endangered Species list

    This is but a small list of their accomplishments, but it shows that not all environmental protection groups can be brushed aside as not having accomplished anything in the realm of conservation.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    We're not talking about "culling" here are we? Meaning, the wolf and bear populations are too big and they are killing livestock?

    I thought that was what the wolf thing was all about for sure. But I could be wrong.

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    i thought livestock had to do with animals being kept in captivity sort of... and this isn't about culling really i don't think, but i seriously doubt there is that much of an overpopulation of wolves and bears in Alaska.... i mean, it's basically all open space!!

    oh and i know the hippie thing wasn't directed at me.. i wasn't offended.. just a disclaimer. like Jayson said, i'm too young to be a hippie.

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    Took a bit of digging but I was able to get info on the Wolf thing. Turns out it is to save other wild life from them. The law has been in place for a while in Alaska and has only been ramped up because numbers are behind.

    They are trying to save the Caribou

    The state created its current wolf-kill program four years ago to protect the moose and caribou that wolves eat, and it's been controversial since day one. Animal-rights groups have sued unsuccessfully, sponsored "howl-ins" and urged tourists to boycott the state.
    http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/wildl...-8628810c.html

    Some folks haven't liked it since the beginning of course but it is not sport hunting.

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    sounds like voodoo to me.. asking for the leg of a slain wolf. i see why they said they're doing it but i don't buy it.
    i also think it's just an excuse. personally, i don't think we should really interfere with nature. the fact that they're paying people to kill wolves, giving people opportunities that couldn't get a permit is a little unsettling to me. wolves have always had big litters.. maybe there are people that have reduced the caribou population and now the wolves are taking the punishment. they were living balanced with each other before we started trying to regulate things.

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Very true and I agree.

    I just wanted to put the "sport hunting wolves" rumor to rest.

    The article goes on to say that because Wolves have large litters and Caribou only have one calf during a birthing season, they are not returning to the wilderness at the same rate.

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    i saw that, but that would have to mean that the caribou population has always been decreasing in relation to the wolf population. they've always been there. it just seems suspicious that it's a problem now. i think it was an excuse to allow people to go out and shoot wolves... and do bears eat caribou?

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    The do indeed!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by theBeamisHome View Post
    and do bears eat caribou?
    ... or shit in the woods?

    (no, we don't really eat caribou. We eat only fallen leaves.)

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    i didn't think they did.. maybe the bears in Alaska are different?

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Bears are omnivorous like we are as far as I know

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_bears_eat

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    i know they're omnivores lol... but i didn't think they hunted things like caribou.

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    Extreme northwestern black bear menu (British Columbia, Canada and Alaska): In all seasons the same as above, with salmon, caribou and moose calves added where those animals are found.
    http://www.covebear.com/BlackBearFoods.htm


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    that's funny.. they're like the only kind of bear that eats something that big they need the fat!
    i still stand by my position that it's the natural order of things and not really our place to try to regulate it. and it's like a mass murdering, though! why couldn't they just relocate them???

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    I think it is the same as any situation where we have intervened in the past and screwed up the local ecology. Wolves are exploding up there with very high birthrates and (as wolves do) they are hunting the shit out of things like the caribou.

    Since there is no profit in killing them (until now) people are reluctant to hunt because its not like you can eat a predator animal.

    Relocating would be fine but where, no one wants an exploding wolf population which is why they are killing a certain amount of them.

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    From the wiki article:

    Predator Control

    In 2006 the Alaska Department of Fish and Games and The Board of Game extended areas in which the aerial gunning of wolves is allowed, under the Predator Control Program. This was met with a legal challenge by the Friends of Animals, Defenders of Wildlife, the Alaska Wildlife Alliance, and the Sierra Club, who sued the Department.[27][28]

    In 2007, Palin supported the Alaska Department of Fish and Game policy allowing Alaska the hunting of wolves from helicopters as part of a predator control program intended to increase moose populations.[29] In March 2007, Palin's office announced that a bounty of $150 per wolf would be paid to the 180 volunteer pilots and gunners, to offset fuel costs. This drew protest among wildlife activitists, [30] who took the state to court and won. Though the activists failed to stop aerial hunting, a state judge forced the state to stop paying the bounty.[31]

    The program prompted U.S. Representative George Miller of California to introduce a federal bill (H.R. 3663) that would protect wolves, bears, and other wildlife from airborne hunting. [29]

    In May 2007 Palin introduced Bill 256 to streamline the Predator Program,[32] and make it more difficult for conservation groups to sue the State. Critics of the Bill claimed it removed scientific standards and claim the programs are expensive and not effective.[33]

    In August, 2007, both lawmakers and Governor Palin approved appropriating $400,000 from the state treasury to explain the aerial hunting program to Alaskans.[34] Since Alaskans were voting on an initiative against the practice the following year, many felt the funds were an attempt to influence the vote against the initiatve.[35][36] Alaskans had voted already against the aerial hunting of predators in 1996 and 2000; both times the state legislature overturned the results.[37] The measure had been allowed to expire after two years each time; hence the controversial vote. The program also allowed the fly-and-shoot, liberalized hunting of black bears with no bag limits in the same areas, in addition to the area from Anchorage across Cook Inlet in Game Unit 16.[38]

    In March 2008 a federal judge's invalidated the aerial gunning program of wolves, by banning the practice in four areas covering up to 15,000 of the total of about 60,000 square miles covered by the program. The areas removed from the program were where the game board decided to extend it , the Judge said the board had extended into new areas for predator control without making any new findings on the wolves, caribou and bears in those areas.[39][40][41] On August 26, 2008, Alaskans voted against ending the state's predator control program.[42]
    I have no objection to responsible hunting for food and have and would do it again myself were it necessary. I also believe you should try to use/and or donate all other usable parts; for example, give antlers and hooves and hide to artisans. If you want to hunt for sport, donate the meat to shelters or preserves.

    Moreover, even if Alaskans feel that they have to control the wolf and bear populations, there are much more humane ways of doing it that shooting from a plane. There should only be one shot: the killing shot. Most aerial hunting videos I have seen do not make the first shot a killing shot. It's damn hard to make a kill when both you and your target are moving - unless you are an exceptional shot.
    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


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    Yep, you could have 50 people with dogs on horse back chasing one little fox...I best not get started on that!


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Yep, you could have 50 people with dogs on horse back chasing one little fox...I best not get started on that!

    big bearhugs for the little fox...

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    *Foxy cuddles for the big Bear*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Yep, you could have 50 people with dogs on horse back chasing one little fox...I best not get started on that!

    Another barbaric practice that should be outlawed.

    In his young adulthood, Mr. Woofer rescued a baby kit fox whose mother and siblings had died from cold. Mr. Woofer was hunting for food at the time.

    *sigh*
    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


  24. #24
    Gunslinger Apprentice bluelph24 is on a distinguished road bluelph24's Avatar

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    i, being a deer hunter and understanding the idea of overpopulation and preservation, completely disagree with this. i mean, with guns don't we already have a huge advantage over animals? do we really need to give ourselves a greater one with airplanes? where's the sport? if the wolves are causeing the caribou to die out, fine. hold a public hunt for them, but using planes is cheating.


    So it goes.

    "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all. "
    - Oscar Wilde

  25. #25
    Wolf Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluelph24 View Post
    i, being a deer hunter and understanding the idea of overpopulation and preservation, completely disagree with this. i mean, with guns don't we already have a huge advantage over animals? do we really need to give ourselves a greater one with airplanes? where's the sport? if the wolves are causeing the caribou to die out, fine. hold a public hunt for them, but using planes is cheating.
    That's more like it. *looks at forum name* Although I would hope that relocation would come first (where feasible). Hell, anybody who has read the dream thread knows that I would love to win the lottery and start a huge wolf preserve. I'd take in these guys and aerial any hunting of wolves would be completely unnecessary. (Hey, it's a dream so I'm going to dream that I have sufficient money for all of them.)
    Last edited by Woofer; 09-18-2008 at 03:02 AM. Reason: Slight clarification.
    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


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