The Gunslinger: Chapter 1, The Gunslinger

[sarajean]

i think that's certainly possible.

[Matt]

It was so weird because it was almost the exact same text from when we saw it again in the last book.

Its the first time I really noticed it even though I have read the book 20 times.

Only 5 or so since 7 came out though

[Ruki]

i've noticed it before, and i think he had the basic idea of how it all ends planned out from the start.

[Matt]

Hmmm...well, I thought it was wild anyway. I mean, he was really young.

<shrug>

I came in all excited about it this morning.

[Ruki]

it is exciting. i'm glad you mentioned it, i wouldn't have thought to say anything.

i know he's said a while back that he didn't know how it would end, so i'm not sure if he started out with that in mind. it does seem that way at times though, and i like thinking that he began with some idea of what the end would be like even if he had no idea how he'd get us there.

[Matt]

I think writers do that a lot. I understand the whole idea of "Gan" but I believe that all writers have a sense of the ending when they start.

Just not how to get there like you said.

This is why spoilers never bothered me. I could read that Flagg is killed by the spider boy but I still don't know how or why and that is always exciting to me.

[Darkthoughts]

And on that note. I noticed the very beginning this time. How Roland has a moment of disorientation in like the first two pages of the book. I grabbed the version that had not been redone and it was there.

Is there any way King could have been planning what we all know as then end all the way back to the first two pages of the first book?

I'm reading the original too and I was also getting that impression.

Funnily enough at the end of DT7, I asked my sister - who read it at the same time, what she thought of it and she replied that she didn't think there could of been any other way for it to end. She'd really picked up on the whole "ka is a wheel" thing.

Thats why its such an interesting series to re-read, because you can pick up on the foreshadowing and subtleties you may've missed first time around.

[Jean]

I don't think he had to plan it. I suspect he knew more than he understood that he knew. Maybe till the very end he didn't really know what some of his insights were about. Doesn't the inspiration come from the Tower? I am also sure he saw and knew, in his inspiration, things that went too far beyond normal human experience, thus can't hardly be rendered into lines of text - and that's then that he starts rationalizing and sometimes ruining things (and the unspeakable It turns into an extraterrestrial spider, and the uncanny Librarian into an insectile monster - ironically, from another planet, too).

I am very sorry I can't take part in the discussion so far - I have no means of getting the Revised either now or in the next future; can anybody please quote the passage from the Revised about Walter's skeleton? I remember this part from the Original very well; do you? When you read it for the first time, did you not know it was Walter's skeleton? I know that I did, and I know that I do, and Walter's reappearance after that has for me nothing to do with any dubious skeleton changing. It's part of some other, bigger picture which can't be expressed in words rooted in human experience, that's why - it seems to me - Sai King had to come up with that changeling skeleton: a flimsy explanation seemed better than no explanation. Please, can you tell me if that explanation is in any way anticipated in the Revised?

[Matt]

But didn't Flagg tell Mordred that the skeleton was not him at all, but just some bones from somewhere.

The seventh book revealed there was no 1,000 years at the circle of stones at the end of book one.

[Jean]

But didn't Flagg tell Mordred that the skeleton was not him at all, but just some bones from somewhere.

that's exactly what sounded so thin to me

[sarajean]

when we get to that part of the story, someone can post that.

and you don't need to be reading the revised to participate.

[Jean]

thank you sarajean!

[Matt]

[sarajean]

in fact, i would prefer it if there were some people (i think chris is, yes?) who were reading the original, so that differences could be pointed out and discussed.

[Matt]

I am listening to the original in my car now, it was hard to read this and Lisey's Story at the same time.

[She-Oy]

I have often wondered if maybe Zoltan was the Man in Black, being that Flagg has been known to take the form of a crow/raven and all. Perhaps it was him there as the raven, using his glamour to conjour up someone from Roland's past to get at what he had been doing. Perhaps Brown was never there at all, and just an illusion created by Flagg as Roland thought it might be.

The insidious, manipulative way that Brown gets Roland to tell him about Tull seems like Flagg's MO to me as well.

Oh, and I hadn't read Desperation or The Regulators when I first read The Gunsliner, but not taht I have, the tak-tak-tak of Zoltan pecking at things is definately eerie.

I think Zoltan could be/is the MIB. Really because of what you have already pointed out which is RF taking form as a raven. That's clearly referencing on King's part to me.
Brown wasn't the MIB because he said he wasn't and Roland had already said if there is one thing the MIB isn't is a "liar"...therefore if Brown was Walter, he wouldn't have lied about it...but what Brown DID say is, "I think you are very close to your man in black." That statement there could be taken quite literally, as in "touching distance"...

But even if Zoltan is supposed to be the MIB, I'm not sure how it adds to the story. It just makes for good speculation and conversation.

[She-Oy]

Ok, so here is a question for the first chapter...what's your favorite quote or sentence...and just because it's a given let's just say the opening line doesn't count! LOL


Mine is at the bottom of page 5 (revised edition):
"He would keep going until something changed, and if nothing changed, he would keep going anyway."

Just seems like a good motto to live by, whether your chasing a man in black, or just trying to make it through life.

[Matt]

I like that one too. In fact, I just heard it on my little trip across town.

I liked..."Cort knew the difference between Black and White"

Also, I am listening from the beginning again and I just got done with Tull. How wild is it that this man is our hero. This man who wiped out an entire town including 5 children and then, at the end of the book, let another one drop to his death (as far as we knew)

And we still loved him at the end. SK is a hell of a story writer.

[She-Oy]

LOL, yeah I agree. In fact as a reader, you almost don't want him to stop killing the people...at least I didn't. I'm all like, "Kill 'em all! Just get the hell outta there and never look back!"

The only half-decent person in the town was Allie, and after she had to go and fuck herself by saying "19", she didn't have a prayer.

And the kids, oh who cares, what kind of future did they have in a hellhole like Tull?

If you ask me, Roland did them all a favor. But then again, I have been accused many times of having a sicko mind..LOL

[Fishonabike]

I've noticed this time around that Roland entered Tull for the first time after dark. Somehow I missed that the first couple times I read the book.

[pol]

I like the concept of Walter conjouring up Brown to fuck with him...but if my recollection serves the only other time that Roland saw him was when he traveled in the grapefruit for the first time...as far as I know Roland had never actually seen him in person (as the books states Susan did) during his time in Mejis. Roland just saw him in the grapefruit...along with images of all the others that would befall his path. Therefore it seems unlikely to me that Walter would conjour him up (or even know that Roland had ever seen him in the glass in the first place), unless of course he had control of the grapefruit and what it revealed to Roland...and of this I am not sure.

So while its an interesting concept I am unsure why Walter would conjour Brown up, unless he controlled what the grapefruit revealed to Roland...and this may be entirely possible.

Now Zoltan being Walter/Flagg seems entirely plausible, especially now since we know that Walter had been backtracking. Even the crazy rhymes that Zoltan sang seem very "Flagglike".

[Darkthoughts]

I'm reading the original - although I've read the revised but don't remember much about the changes other than 19 cropping up alot.
In the original Roland shoots Allie because Sheb is holding her hostage, but he's already preparing to shoot. Allie says "He's got me O Jesus don't shoot don't don't don't - " and as we know he does, I love how it says in the book:

But the hands were trained.

Does the revised deviate from that much?

[Matt]

It actually does. The reason Roland shoots her is because she begs him to do it.

Had spoken 19 to Nort after all.

dt.net did a calendar once, my Dora was Allie

We should think about doing that again

[sarah]

I'm reading the original - although I've read the revised but don't remember much about the changes other than 19 cropping up alot.
In the original Roland shoots Allie because Sheb is holding her hostage, but he's already preparing to shoot. Allie says "He's got me O Jesus don't shoot don't don't don't - " and as we know he does, I love how it says in the book:

But the hands were trained.

Does the revised deviate from that much?

Thanks for posting that. The first time I read the Gunslinger it was the origional version but that was a long time ago and I other than 19 and a few little things here and there I couldn't find much difference.


oh i do think that the mention of manni is brought up in the revised and that Roland lost the horn. Two big deals that play up pretty big in book 5-7.

[Ruki]

I'm reading the original - although I've read the revised but don't remember much about the changes other than 19 cropping up alot.
In the original Roland shoots Allie because Sheb is holding her hostage, but he's already preparing to shoot. Allie says "He's got me O Jesus don't shoot don't don't don't - " and as we know he does, I love how it says in the book:

But the hands were trained.

Does the revised deviate from that much?

that line was changed to something like "his hands were trained to give her what she wanted." i can't grab my copy to see if i'm quoting the exact line or not, i think i am.