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Thread: Roland - General discussion

  1. #51
    Citizen of Gilead She-Oy is on a distinguished road She-Oy's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by She-Oy View Post
    I am seeing Letti's point full on now.
    And what she says is exactly WHY I tend to forgive. It's more for me than it is the other person. I hate to hold grudges, it makes me physically ill sometimes...to just let it go, forgive, move on...it's cathartic.
    You must be a valuable soul.
    No, I wouldn't say so. I just have a very guilty complex and this is how I have learned to cope with it. I feel guilty when I am angry, I have to learn to let go. It's a personal choice for me. In some ways it's almost selfish.
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

  2. #52
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by She-Oy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by She-Oy View Post
    I am seeing Letti's point full on now.
    And what she says is exactly WHY I tend to forgive. It's more for me than it is the other person. I hate to hold grudges, it makes me physically ill sometimes...to just let it go, forgive, move on...it's cathartic.
    You must be a valuable soul.
    No, I wouldn't say so. I just have a very guilty complex and this is how I have learned to cope with it. I feel guilty when I am angry, I have to learn to let go. It's a personal choice for me. In some ways it's almost selfish.
    We all are selfish. The question is what you can do with it. And to me it seems that you can handle it really nicely.

    Roland would have understood.

  3. #53
    Along the Path of the Beam Valkyrie is on a distinguished road Valkyrie's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Yes... there is a lot in what you say Valkyrie but we often forgive people who don't really need our forgiveness. There are so many feelings that are lost in the big universe but.. maybe they are still important.
    It's possible they are not important to the ones we feel them for.. but to ourselves.
    This is true, aand I understand where you are coming from.

    However, if I can play devil's advocate for a moment, it can also seem very arrogant of me to suggest that the universe might require my forgiveness of someone who hasn't sought my forgiveness or has done me no personal wrong. And as for offering forgiveness simply to make myself feel better about events I had no part in? I just don't get that...I mean, I get it, but it doesn't do anything for me personally.

    Going back to the question: Roland is a man of many flaws, that is true. He's hurt many people and done a lot of bad things in his quest for the tower. In my opinion, he is being well-punished for these things and while he has my sympathy, I still don't feel the need to forgive him for anything and am holding no grudge or ill feelings toward him.

  4. #54
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    You don't feel that you were a part of the quest, Valky?

    Roland would have understood.

  5. #55
    Along the Path of the Beam Valkyrie is on a distinguished road Valkyrie's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    You don't feel that you were a part of the quest, Valky?
    Because while I was emotionally there, I didn't have to suffer and sweat and sacrifice the way they did. I didn't go through what they went through. I took great pleasure in laying on my sofa and reading about their quest.

  6. #56
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Oh ok, I understand what you're saying Jean. I don't think I grasped it at first because I couldn't forgive someone if I was unable to justify (to myself) their actions.

    However, thats also a bit of a paradox because I think if you love someone or care very deeply for them, you find ways to justify the unjust because you want to forgive them.
    Exactly! But we shouldn't be afraid of paradoxes, such is the dialectic of life.
    Now, after giving it some more thought - there still are cases of forgiveness without justification (although you're not a Christian, I think I can give this example: God forgives us our sins without ever justifying them). That Jake situation is, of course, the most graphic. Heather would forgive him if she was Jake; but even without identifying with him, can't we forgive Roland - although letting a child who trusts you fall into the abyss isn't justifiable under any circumstances - because he suffered, because he repented (1), and because he was, already as early as in TDOTT, ready to sacrifice everything, even to forfeit his chances to get to the Tower (sometimes it seems to me that Odetta and Matt read a different book!) to undo what he had done and to save the boy (2).

    (1)
    The gunslinger came awake from a confused dream which seemed to consist of a single image: that of the Sailor in the Tarot deck from which the man in black had dealt (or purported to deal) the gunslinger's own moaning future.
    He drowns, gunslinger, the man in black was saying, and no one throws out the line. The boy Jake.
    But this was no nightmare. It was a good dream. It was good because he was the one drowning, and that meant he was not Roland at all but Jake, and he found this a relief because it would be far better to drown as Jake than to live as himself, a man who had, for a cold dream, betrayed a child who had trusted him.
    (2)
    Roland came forward as nothing but a projectile, a brainless missile programmed to launch the body he was in at the man in black the instant he saw him. Thoughts of what might happen if he stopped the man in black from murdering Jake did not come until later -- the possible paradox, the fistula in time and dimension which might cancel out everything that had happened after he had arrived at the way station. . . for surely if he saved Jake in this world, there would have been no Jake for him to meet there, and everything which had happened thereafter would change.
    What changes? Impossible even to speculate on them. That one might have been the end of his quest never entered the gunslinger's mind. And surely such after-the-fact specula*tions were moot; if he had seen the man in black, no conse*quence, paradox, or ordained course of destiny could have stopped him from simply lowering the head of this body he inhabited and pounding it straight through Walter's chest. Roland would have been as helpless to do otherwise as a gun is helpless to refuse the finger that squeezes the trigger and flings the bullet on its flight.
    If it sent all to hell, the hell with it.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. #57
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Yes, it is a very Christian concept forgiveness isn't it. I mean, in its truest form where you forgive unconditionally. I don't bear grudges against people, I'm unable to...not perhaps for the same reasons as She-Oy, more because I can't be rude to someone/ignore them if they speak to me...haha - I'm soooo British So what I mean to illustrate by that is that to all intents and purposes other people might imagine that I forgive - but I'd know in my heart that my relationship with that person had changed irreversably.

    To apply that to Roland, the fact that he repents and often wishes throughout the story that he'd acted differently - he still doesn't forgive himself and nor does Jake (who is always reluctant to complete any sentance that involves disclosing how Roland let him fall. Plus he is always unsure that Roland will let it happen again) so, no matter if you're asking me if I can forgive Roland - I can't help but base my opinion on facts and the opinions of Roland and the ka-tet. What basis for making a decision do i have otherwise?

    I don't think I've made a decision one way or the other so far - but I have to go with "no, I don't forgive him" I love Roland and I supported him throughout the journey - but I'd be lying if I said I'd truly forgiven him. Infact I'll go one step further and say I don't really believe in the concept of forgiveness because I don't believe anyone ever truly does forgive (even though we are very adept at acting otherwise) in their secret heart of hearts.

  8. #58
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    I see where the core of this difference between us lies. For you, the notion itself of forgiveness is akin to justification; for me to love. You're doubtful how one can forgive without justifying; I can't see how one can love without forgiving. But, of course, then the concept of forgetting creeps in... and it's something I got to give additional thought to (I think I know what I think, but can't put it into clear categories yet).

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. #59
    West Coast sarah is on a distinguished road sarah's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daghain View Post
    I said it didn't make sense to me, only because I don't think there's anything to forgive him for.
    My thoughts exactly. He tried to better himself all through the quest. he was a changed man from The Gunslinger to The Wastelands. I don't think there is anything to forgive.



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    sugarpop <3

  10. #60
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I said I wouldn't only in the context of the question. I assumed Letti meant that if it was in your power (or mattered) to forgive him. Would you?

    I said "no" and that is only because I am a huge personal responsibility guy. Also, since I believe the only key to Rolands salvation is to cry off, he needs to have the strength to realize that imo.

    and its funny how closely this matches a struggle I am having in my life at the moment. Not for all existence but from a certain perspective...aren't all quests that way?
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  11. #61
    Gunslinger Apprentice Cuthbert Allbad is on a distinguished road Cuthbert Allbad's Avatar

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    Rough question. I don't feel Roland did anything wrong. I'm sure the rest of the Ka Tet knew what chances they took by joining Roland's quest.

    Roland acted exactly the way Roland should've have. It's his nature.

  12. #62
    Citizen of Gilead She-Oy is on a distinguished road She-Oy's Avatar

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    This whole conversation reminds me of a song, "The Grudge" by Tool.

    If you read the lyrics it's about the same thing. Actually the song is saying that this world's lack of forgiveness is what is bringing us down...it's even got "looping" going on in it.

    Anyway, here are the lyrics, read them and see if you can get the same thing out of them...

    Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
    Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
    Desperate to control all and everything.
    Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

    Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
    Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
    Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
    Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

    Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

    Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
    Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
    Saturn ascends, comes round again.
    Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done.

    Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
    Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
    Desperate to control all and everything.
    Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

    Wear your grudge like a crown. Desperate to control.
    Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper.

    Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper.

    Saturn comes back around to show you everything
    Let's you choose what you will not see and then
    Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
    Spits you out like a child, light and innocent.

    Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
    Drags you down like a stone
    To consume you till you choose to let this go.

    Give away the stone. Let the oceans take and
    Transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
    Give away the stone. Let the waters kiss and
    Transmutate these leaden grudges into gold.
    Let go.


    I feel so much like my husband right! 8)
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

  13. #63
    Citizen of Gilead Aesculapius is on a distinguished road Aesculapius's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by She-Oy View Post
    I feel so much like my husband right! 8)
    I wouldn't shout that too loud.

    Anyway, yes, 'The Grudge' is the first song on the album for a damn good reason.
    Momma told me there would be DAYS like this. SHe is coming back around, though...to put things back the way they should be. HIS story? Nah...we've had enough of that.

  14. #64
    Citizen of Gilead She-Oy is on a distinguished road She-Oy's Avatar

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    Hey, I'm proud of your thoughts, even if I don't get them myself all the time...hehehe

    But what I was trying to say is Roland might do well by listening to that song...it almost written for people just like him.
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

  15. #65
    Citizen of Gilead Aesculapius is on a distinguished road Aesculapius's Avatar

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    LVX
    Momma told me there would be DAYS like this. SHe is coming back around, though...to put things back the way they should be. HIS story? Nah...we've had enough of that.

  16. #66
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    I see where the core of this difference between us lies. For you, the notion itself of forgiveness is akin to justification; for me to love. You're doubtful how one can forgive without justifying; I can't see how one can love without forgiving. But, of course, then the concept of forgetting creeps in... and it's something I got to give additional thought to (I think I know what I think, but can't put it into clear categories yet).
    No love without forgiveness? What if theres nothing to forgive?

    I'm glad you hit on "forgetting" though, because I was thinking about this conversation yesterday - trying to think how I could better express what I mean and it came to me that its to do with how you define forgiveness, and to me its bonded with forgetting.

    From what I posted previously I don't want you to think that if someone wrongs me I could never forgive them, I do forgive people but my point is - is there ever true forgiveness?

    For example lets say your partner was unfaithful to you, but you decided that you wanted to carry on your relationship and to do that obviously you must forgive. So what does forgive mean in this context? It means in part that you feel your love is strong enough to endure this (your point about love and forgiveness?) but it also means that you agree to forget - that you won't hold it against them or continually dwell on it.

    My pov then was, you can't truly erase that knowledge from your brain though, so have you truly forgiven? Or is forgiveness the act of keeping it to yourself and not dwelling on it?

    I guess in this example there would be no justification - you cannot justify the unfaithful partners actions, you put stock in the value of your love and forgive on that basis.

  17. #67
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    we're getting deeper and deeper into that, and our categories multiply. Now yet another aspect arises: difference between not forgetting and holding it against someone. Thank you for that wonderful post and food for thought... will take me some time

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  18. #68
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    No worries, I'm really enjoying this discourse with you

  19. #69
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Same here, we have some fascinating conversations going on
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  20. #70
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Its so refreshing to be able to discuss the books again, and in such depth. We've developed a whole philosophy from them as readers and I love how everyones taken such different meanings from what they read and experienced on the quest.
    Group hug!!

  21. #71
    Citizen of Gilead She-Oy is on a distinguished road She-Oy's Avatar

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    Yes it is. I know I am thoroughly enjoying the conversations.

    To hit on the forgive and forget notion, well, I don't think we can ever really forget a wrong done to us, but I don't think you necessarily have to forget to truely forgive. In fact, it wouldn't be right to forget. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you are throwing yourself out there to be walked all over again, it mean just as you said DT, to not dwell on it. To not bring it up and hold it over the person's head.

    There is nothing wrong about learning from a bad experience and taking caution.
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

  22. #72
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Its so refreshing to be able to discuss the books again, and in such depth. We've developed a whole philosophy from them as readers and I love how everyones taken such different meanings from what they read and experienced on the quest.
    Group hug!!
    Indeed it is. I like your style Darkthoughts, including your user ID.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  23. #73
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Its so refreshing to be able to discuss the books again, and in such depth. We've developed a whole philosophy from them as readers and I love how everyones taken such different meanings from what they read and experienced on the quest.
    Group hug!!

    Roland would have understood.

  24. #74
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    And another question... if you don't mind.
    Can we decide if we forgive or not? Does it depend on us? Or does it just come?


    Anyway I think forgiveness is a very complex feeling and "journey". First step is to understand the other.
    The second one is to be able to accept what has happened to see the reasons even if it hurts a lot and it's hard to see through the dark clouds.
    And the third
    *thinks*
    step is to open those doors we had closed inside us before.

    Does it make any sense?
    These are my first thoughts so let me know how you think about it.

    And one more last question...
    can we lose the ability to forgive?

    Roland would have understood.

  25. #75
    Nigel Tufnel Odetta has a spectacular aura about Odetta has a spectacular aura about Odetta has a spectacular aura about Odetta's Avatar

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    We can decide to forgive or not. It is not an automatic response. Because of that, to answer your second question... can we lose the ability to forgive? No... you always have the ability... but you can CHOOSE to not forgive.
    There's a fine line between stupid and clever.

    You can't really dust for vomit.

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