Roland - General discussion

[pathoftheturtle]

Probably some truth to that, MoW, but Letti has a point, too. I remember once reading about a blind woman who received sight from surgery. Taken to see her first painting gallery, she asked why there were dark smudges drawn on and around the figures, and they explained that perspective shading is meant to make the painting look less like a flat image and more like the real world. She answered, "But that is what the real world looks like. Flat."

[alinda]

WOW! Great thread , and topic razz. I tend to agree with
comments left by Letti, Brian and Path here all at once.
Rolands process may indeed be very diffent at this point.
and Letti & Path saying that about first film has me thinking
that his perception of television may indeed be as Brian so
aptly stated ...flat. My head is spinning, sorry for such a jumble.

[razz]

Well i was going to put my theories now, but it's 10:40 and I'm as tired as hell. tomorrow then

[Matt of Gilead]

Well, I had to vote that this poll is stupid, but mostly because of the "make love" thing. Roland couldn't "make love" to anyone if he tried. His heart is long gone, and he's just barely clinging to his soul. He definitely felt for Rosa, but there's not enough emotion left in him to love. He can definitely "have sex" with just about anyone who comes along, and I agree that it seems to be a purely physical activity, like eating, or stretching.

[Matt of Gilead]

Well, I picked "somewhere else," but that's not really an answer. The answer is both all of the above, and none of the above. Like every child, he became an adult slowly, without realizing it.

[cozener]

In a very real way, Roland would have become an adult very early on; the first time Cort beat the living hell out of him for some mistake. Being beat the hell out of can give someone a level of concentration that some adults have never reached. But in other , and I would say more important ways, he didn't become an "adult" until much later in life.

But then perhaps I shouldn't say that. In Roland's world that really was the most important thing...certainly in his hereditary profession.

[Darkthoughts]

The quotes in the first post, combined with the changes Roland undergoes by the end of the series make this an interesting discussion. I've changed the title slightly to make the topic a little clearer

[Darkthoughts]

We have, unsurprisingly, quite a few threads on Roland - so, I've merged some of the older ones here and included Letti's poll which I think gives an excellent basis for discussion of the character.

[razz]

I was going to vote, but i never want to when 19 people have already voted. I also CAN'T answer, since there are different things which he needs forgiveness for.
I can forgive him for dropping Jake, partly because i think the Jake of The Gunslinger was a whiny little *insert exotic profanity here*.
I can understand him begging Susannah to stay with him, but i can't forgive him for dropping on his knees and crying. That's just pathetic, being the man that he is.
I can forgive him for choosing The tower over Susan, because he didn't know she would die because of him.
there are many things that require forgiveness.

[Letti]

there are many things that require forgiveness.

very true
Anyway it would be great to see you voting.

[Chap]

if the story was real, I could forgive him because he saved the bleeping multiverse.
but as it's fiction he doesn't need my forgivenes, and therefore I don't see any reason to give it

[Wuducynn]

but as it's fiction

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! !!

*dies gasping in the corner from shock*

[razz]

*kindles funeral pyre*

[Kes]

In that case, yes, I could forgive him. If Jake was me, meaning if Roland had dropped me, I would have forgiven him. But I'm that kind of person. I can forgive just about anyone...doesn't mean I don't learn, just means I can make peace without hatred...which is something Roland obviously can't do.

Anger eats me alive and I can't stand to be that way. For him, it was just a way of life and a driving force at that.

Do you think that hatred is really what drives Roland?

I'm not so sure, unless it's self loathing, and a need to prove to himself that the lives of his friends and family were not sacrificed in vain.

But Roland kills in an absolute absence of hate in my opinion.

Hate isn't the opposite of love in my opinion. Indifference is the opposite of love. Where we begin with Roland he is completely removed from love...not in a state of hatred but in a state of indifference to anything and everything except "going on". If Roland could HATE he wouldn't have lost his ability to love.



That being said I don't think that Roland needs forgiveness, from me or anyone else. If he did, of course he could have it. I forgive him, as most of the people in his life would have...

What Roland needs and is seeking is another principle altogether. It's the one that Judaism preached before the coming of the Man Jesus...and that is atonement. Roland doesn't need forgiveness for his "sins" but rather needs to atone for them in his own eyes as well as in the sight of Gan/The Tower.

[razz]

If Roland could HATE he wouldn't have lost his ability to love.

hate without love

[Chap]

but as it's fiction

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! !!

*dies gasping in the corner from shock*

sorry, I should have put spoiler tags around that part

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I can, and do, forgive Roland.

I think that we sometimes see his

Spoiler:

loop

as something directly related to things he has doen wrong (and its probably right). But I think that part of his urge to get to the Dark Tower is because of something deeper that he feels inside him.

I think he learned something, and I hope he will keep it with him. He loved his ka-tet as his own family and I do believe that changed him. He could be hard as anils and disregard what was best for those he loved, however if the world ends...what good does it do? And to him, and his knowledge, that is what is happening. "The road to Hell is paved in good intentions", seems like a fitting cliche, here.

[EdwardDean1999]

I think Roland needs feelings (some). I think his every sexual encounter post-Susan is him trying to reconnect with the careless/in-love feelings he had for Susan. He could find respite from his awesome, weighty task of Tower hunting only in the arms of a woman. I see love making to him as sometimes heeling (Rosa), sometimes an attempt to remember or forget Susan (Alice).

Remember the seen when Sheb barges in on him and Alice? The mention of Susan throws a big wrench in the whole love-making thing. I disagree that Alice was just sex for lodging. There were deeper feelings there for Roland. He was trying to feel human again. He thought he was a monster. Not human. And then Walter's trap further unconvinces Roland of his humanity.

This is rambling. I'll stop now. Say sorry.

[Matt of Gilead]

I forgive Roland,

Spoiler:

and wish him well on his way to his rest...someday.

[Darkthoughts]

I've always been firmly of the opinion that he shouldn't drop Jake, so I suppose that is my main point on which I'm unable to forgive him. But then, forgiveness isn't about your choices, is it? It's about walking in someone elses shoes and regarding the choices they percieve themselves as having.
I've been rereading (from the book and comics) Roland's gunslinger trial, where he sacrifices David and it's giving me a slightly different perspective...in Roland's favour.

[Matt]

I think a bird is a far cry from a boy.

I hold my original thinking that choosing his quest for the Tower over a boy that he loved was a big step on the way to damnation for Roland.

As it would be for any of us.

[theyspunaweb]

I forgive him

because

it is inferred that, through the end of the book, he has possibly made his way to the dark tower before, and will try again, who knows how many times, and will have time to fix his mistakes and has possibly started to become a "kinder" person already. That might not be the right adjective, but his heart may prove him true in the future...therefore I can forgive him.

[Darkthoughts]

I think a bird is a far cry from a boy.

I agree, actually I like talking about this with you Matt, because usually it's me and you vs. the world when it comes to not dropping Jake
But what I meant was, it's something in the way he speaks to David before he sacrifices him, it's not without passion - but the necessity of what he's about to do (as far as Roland's concerned) negates the emotional and moral consequences.

[Matt]

That is actually a really good point. Roland loved David and killed him for what he thought was a higher purpose. And in that case, it was.

[Jean]

That is actually a really good point. Roland loved David and killed him for what he thought was a higher purpose. And in that case, it was.

Was or wasn't, the principle remains the same: sacrificing someone other that oneself.