Cultural isolation, cultural relevance and assimilation

[Matt]

I personally believe that there are people in all countries that are ignorant to the rest of the world and happily so. Its not an American thing, it is a human thing.

I do not believe this country is perfect but I do thing we have not done more harm than good in this world even in the last 8 years. I believe we have a right to pride in our country and I am really looking forward to the day when we are no longer the only superpower because we find ourselves in a situation where nothing we can do is right.

I'm not sure what kind of schools people went to but I was personally taught all kinds of stuff about the world and ancient cultures in school, but more over, I left school and learned more on my own. I am not alone I do not believe. No one ever convinced me anyone was an "evil empire". Not even Iraq or Iran now because I believe that is politics, not people.

I'm not trying to start a fight but I believe the US has not been as bad as folks make out. Just much more visible in our mistakes.

[alinda]

Its not an American thing, it is a human thing.

[valtr0n]

Americans aren't even educated about their own culture and history. How can anyone possibly expect them to know anything about the rest of the world?

[razz]

well here's something i really don't like about us Americans. We really have no say in our own futures until we are a certain age, but by then, the organizations that have made Americans what we are, have already had a go at us YEARS ago. Not that our fuck ups aren't our fault. i take responsibility like any man (or lady), but our policy of Isolationism from the early 20th century just proves how dumb many of us are.

[Jon]

First of all, there has never been any cold war against you here. We were always taught to believe, even in the darkest times, that the USA was a great country (our ally in the Great War, among other things - which was always important to us) which, unfortunately, suffer under horrible government... that point of view may have been naive, but it was never aggressive or in any way urging us to repell anything "good" ("bad" was only pornography, although I agree that its frames were wider than what we understand unders this word now, direct anti-soviet propaganda, and some aspects of violence; the rest was "good") coming from you.

Jean, you cannot know how utterly FUCKING STUNNED to read your words. I always assumed the propaganda was two-way. We had "mock attacks." We would dive under our desks as children in school (because EVEYONE knows an ICBM cannot penetrate a school desk.) We were told many times to not eat the snow because the "commies" tested a nuclear device near Alaska and we were down wind (we are about 4,000 miles from The Bering Strait LOL.) As children we were scared to death of the great red bear. A typical playground insult (about 7 years of age) was "You "Commie!"

Im my very rural home we had 4 sources of news, CBS,NBC,ABC and the county newspaper (We couldn't get a signal from the precurser to the NPR...too far "out.".) All media we had access to penned the USSR as an evil people (notice not "nation") bent on world domination. The pablum puked by Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy in the 1950's, was still being "preached." His "red witch hunt out lived him. red witch hunt

I now feel so ashamed of my behavior as a child!! But I am happy to read your words. My heart raced with joy when I read your post, then the things I did and said as a boy came back to me in a crashing wave of shame.

Jean, you know how highly I think of you; you have brought joy, you have brought truth. I feel shame,.

[KaLikeAWheel]

This is an incredibly interesting thread! I gotta say that Vast's initial post is pretty much what I'd say word for word. Especially this: "I value Jean's input and discussion and am actually amazed to hear that he was taught to honor us as allies while we have been been programmed to see his great culture and people as an evil empire. It is something I will share with my children both as an opportunity and something for them to use to break the cycle of ignorance."

I'm a died-in-the-wool skeptic. I know that what we're taught in our schools and what our media and government tell us often has little resemblence to reality, but I have to admit that I bought the propaganda, too. I've often had reasons to be ashamed of the American government lately, but never moreso than I am right now. In our so-called "free" society, with its "free" press and freedom of speech, it's atrocious that such lies could be so pervasive. I am also ashamed of myself, because I'm sure I could have found the truth if I had bothered to look, but in my defense the "Evil Russia" attitude was fed to me from the cradle and it never occured to me to question that 1950's attitude. I'm pretty much disgusted with myself right now.

When you stop to consider how stunned all we Americans are at the true way Jean was taught to think of our country, it pretty much proves that we're a bunch of cultural children who cannot be bothered to pay attention to anywhere outside our borders.

I believe that America is a wonderful country. I like living here. As a woman I have oportunities here I would never have in other parts of the world, but this country has the potential to be so much greater if only we could broaden our vision to the rest of the world.

All of this is, of course, only my opinion. I will not apologize for it, but I truly did not wish to offend.

Donna

[Jean]

I personally believe that there are people in all countries that are ignorant to the rest of the world and happily so. Its not an American thing, it is a human thing.

Certainly... but I am afraid the USA is one of those (hopefully, few?) countries where this attitude achieved the status of state policy.

We had "mock attacks." We would dive under our desks as children in school (because EVEYONE knows an ICBM cannot penetrate a school desk.) We were told many times to not eat the snow because the "commies" tested a nuclear device near Alaska and we were down wind (we are about 4,000 miles from The Bering Strait LOL.) As children we were scared to death of the great red bear. A typical playground insult (about 7 years of age) was "You "Commie!"

Im my very rural home we had 4 sources of news, CBS,NBC,ABC and the county newspaper (We couldn't get a signal from the precurser to the NPR...too far "out.".) All media we had access to penned the USSR as an evil people (notice not "nation") bent on world domination. The pablum puked by Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy in the 1950's, was still being "preached." His "red witch hunt out lived him. red witch hunt

We knew all that, of course... only here the official propaganda went, like, "the imperialistic government of the USA, pursuing their own foul aims, tries to blindfold their hard-working, talented, friendly people with foul lies!" And... two sad things followed, I don't know which is sadder...

1. We didn't believe. We didn't fucking believe you really were told such lies about us. We were told about "mock attacks" you have and all the rest of it that you mention in your post... and we didn't believe. By the time I describe (seventies till mid-eighties) we had been all firmly convinced that ours is the most ridiculous, the most absurd propaganda possible, so no wonder it tells us lies about your propaganda, exaggerating and overblowing, and, well - just lying. Because surely no propaganda but Soviet could be that stupid!

2. We were sure that even if you are exposed to at least some amount of such propaganda, you didn't believe it, just like we did't believe ours... Surely, we thought and said to each other, the people of the USA couldn't believe such things, they were not idiots, were they? Surely they had access to information that would let them see that we are no monsters, that we are people like them? That we, too, want to live in peace, etc, etc, etc...

Donna: no, we weren't really taught "true way", either... we were taught to believe that American people only dreamed of overthrowing the capitalist rule and joining the happy famiily of socialist countries, and that the Communist Party in the USA was the inspiring force between all progressive developments there... and that foul capitalists drugged the people with pornography, violence, narcotics, and pseudo-"art" to distract them from struggle for their rights... Another thing is that, while our grandfathers believed every word of it, and our fathers about 30%, we (born in the early 60s) were already the generation which didn't believe a word of the propaganda.

We were creating our own myths... we thought you were oh so free, and happy, and had access to all world's culture, and lived in a real democracy, and we fucking really envied you!

About women's opportunities... I already mentioned elsewhere that my aunt was a war pilot... since the early 20s our women were scientists and engineers and surgeons and whatever else had been considered strictly male kinds of occupation... Women, in fact, had some privileges at getting (and keeping) such jobs, because it was good for statistics, having women in all those fields, and graphically proved the "superiority of Socialism"... But at the same time, no woman could choose to remain a housewife (unless she had some Godless number of children, I forget which; nobody had that many, only sometimes in Asiatic republics), it was against the law.

P.S. I suddenly remembered how people mourned Challenger disaster here... A woman about 50 on the subway train in which I went to word cried and repeated, "She was a teacher, she was a teacher!" and tried to wipe her tears with the newspaper where that article was published... Many other women had wet eyes... I don't think anyone stayed indifferent...

[alinda]

Echos all the thank you's to Jean, for some much needed truths

[KaLikeAWheel]

1. We didn't believe. We didn't fucking believe you really were told such lies about us. We were told about "mock attacks" you have and all the rest of it that you mention in your post... and we didn't believe. By the time I describe (seventies till mid-eighties) we had been all firmly convinced that ours is the most ridiculous, the most absurd propaganda possible, so no wonder it tells us lies about your propaganda, exaggerating and overblowing, and, well - just lying. Because surely no propaganda but Soviet could be that stupid!

2. We were sure that even if you are exposed to at least some amount of such propaganda, you didn't believe it, just like we did't believe ours... Surely, we thought and said to each other, the people of the USA couldn't believe such things, they were not idiots, were they? Surely they had access to information that would let them see that we are no monsters, that we are people like them? That we, too, want to live in peace, etc, etc, etc...

Donna: no, we weren't really taught "true way", either... we were taught to believe that American people only dream of overthrowing the capitalist rule and join the happy famiily of socialist countries, and that the Communist Party in the USA was the inspiring force between all progressive developments there... and that foul capitalists drug the people with pornography, violence, narcotics, and pseudo-"art"... Another thing is that, while our grandfathers believed every word of it, and our fathers about 30%, we (born in the early 60s) were already the generation which didn't believe a word of the propaganda.

Jean,

First let me clarify that in my original post, I was always refering to the time period of the so-called "cold war," and not my current attitude, despite the fact that my post was written present tense.

I think perhaps we Americans have two strikes against us.

1.) Naivete: The USA is a relatively young country. and as a result, I think Americans were and are more gullible. Even today, many, if not most, of the people here watch CNN or Fox News and believe it is gospel. Many people believe in the concept of "unbiased" news or that a free press equates to an honest press. Perhaps we were more impressionable as a people than the citizens in the old Soviet Union, or perhaps our propagandaists were just of a better caliber. It's not that we're stupid, it's just more that we're philosophically lazy. We're getting better since the internet came along, so have patience with us, Jean.

2.) Rabid patriotism: In our oh-so-free society, to question the way America does things has always been akin to saying you don't love this country. There has always been large faction of this country who are rabidly patriotic, and they've spent a lot of time in positions of power. The result is that ideas that don't agree with the status quo (and the status quo gave us McCarthyism), are often met with hatred, suspicion and downright violence. In short, it's un-American to not believe what your told. You're a bad American if you ask questions. Our propagandaists said similar things to what yours said, but they padded it with sayings about "defending the American way," and "fighting for freedom," etc. Add the monthly "drills" where we practiced diving under our desks and occasional viewings of films with names like, "How to Survive a Nuclear Attack," or "What to Do When Russia Invades," well, it makes an impression on a child.

I honestly did not mean to offend you, Jean. I respect you very much. I was only surprised your government villified only our leaders, and not our people as a whole. I respect you even more now, knowing that you never believed the lies. The smear campaign against your country perpitrated by our leaders was much broader. The history we are taught in our schools is narrow-minded and highly slanted. Those of us that did not broaden our history education in college are often very lacking in cultural knowledge. That was the point I was trying to make.

[jayson]

Certainly... but I am afraid the USA is one of those (hopefully, few?) countries where this attitude achieved the status of state policy.

Couldn't agree more. Of course there is cultural ignorance in all parts of the world, but it seems more and more that this is becoming somewhat a point of pride for Americans. Our current administration prides itself on the fact that it does not consider the advice of other nations on particular issues, and Americans rally around that concept as if it were the best possible policy. Consensus and diplomacy are seen by many here as signs of national weakness.

The other issue that I have with the cultural ignorance which pervades much of this country is that it is willful. Jean makes an excellent point about how one chooses to believe or not believe the lies they are being told by their governments and their media and their educators. It has been my observation that many Americans that are ignorant of other cultures are willfully ignorant. They know that there is more than they are being told, they simply don't care to find out. It's easier to just accept the perpetuated truth.

[Matt]

Certainly... but I am afraid the USA is one of those (hopefully, few?) countries where this attitude achieved the status of state policy.

I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US.

[Brice]

Nah, dude! It's cool! We're all friends here. Noone has to like or agree with anyone's opinions. You believe what you believe. It ain't like you could change that evenif you wanted to do so. Based on reading your posts both here and elsewhere over the last few years. I'm relatively sure we're probably polar opposites in our opinions...and that's a good thing. It takes all kinds and I suspect whatever truth there is lies somewhere in the middle.

[Jean]

I honestly did not mean to offend you, Jean.

I was so surprised when I read that! Offend me, when you have showed such a lot of understanding? I've loved your country and its people since I remember myself... and now I only have more and more reasons for that love - more and more, with every day.

I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US.

Now the bear isn't surprised, the bear is shocked!

Matt - it's you who made this site, and it's thanks to you and to the people you have chosen to be your team that the main idea here remains: everyone speaks his mind, whether or not he is minority or majority, and his opinion is respected. That's what the whole thing is about, isn't it? And it's your creation, all tolerance and understanding that have been cultivated around here, it's all how you conceived this site and brought it into existence!

Jayson... there's one thing... you had more reasons to believe your propaganda than we did... because, you know, if a government can offer their people any acceptable life standard, it's one thing, and when it can't, it's quite different... I'll give details later, they might be interesting.

P.S. Another random memory. In the 60s, there was a portrait of Hemingway, beard, pipe and all, in almost every house; and his books, of course. Hemingway was a definite must if you wanted to be considered a somebody!

[Matt]

I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US.

Now the bear isn't surprised, the bear is shocked!

Matt - it's you who made this site, and it's thanks to you and to the people you have chosen to be your team that the main idea here remains: everyone speaks his mind, whether or not he is minority or majority, and his opinion is respected. That's what the whole thing is about, isn't it? And it's your creation, all tolerance and understanding that have been cultivated around here, it's all how you conceived this site and brought it into existence!

Thank you Jean, I appreciate that. I understand that feelings on the US around the world (and at home) are very much a love/hate thing. I think that we deserve both in many cases.

Mostly my reasons for not going very far into it is because I do not want to create a misunderstanding over opinions that (for everyone) are strictly personal and can only go so far in an effort to be based in fact.

This thread itself has an amazing title and the potential to teach all of us about many different aspects of the countries and cultures we share this planet with. But it is simply about the US.

I know its a product of the overwhelming majority of the sites members being US citizens so there is not much to do about it. I actually hope that changes as Stephen Kings influence reaches even more of the globe

I believe humans as a species have a hell of a lot to learn about one another and its not specifically about any of our countries.

[jayson]

Matt - I know from other threads that you and I don't always agree on subjects like this, but I do always find your input valuable. As for potential misunderstandings, it's been my experience that you are always good at delineating what is your opinion and what is a fact so most misunderstandings would be avoided. I feel you add a lot to these discussions.

Jean - I think you have a point with reference to relationship of the quality of life provided by a government and the willingness of the people to believe what that government says. Comfortability with the status quo is a strong motivator to not question things.

[VastOne]

I do not believe that in any way shape or form but I do respect you opinion Jean. I feel like its...not prudent for me to comment in here as I am in the minority about my opinions concerning the US.

Now the bear isn't surprised, the bear is shocked!

Matt - it's you who made this site, and it's thanks to you and to the people you have chosen to be your team that the main idea here remains: everyone speaks his mind, whether or not he is minority or majority, and his opinion is respected. That's what the whole thing is about, isn't it? And it's your creation, all tolerance and understanding that have been cultivated around here, it's all how you conceived this site and brought it into existence!

Thank you Jean, I appreciate that. I understand that feelings on the US around the world (and at home) are very much a love/hate thing. I think that we deserve both in many cases.

Mostly my reasons for not going very far into it is because I do not want to create a misunderstanding over opinions that (for everyone) are strictly personal and can only go so far in an effort to be based in fact.

This thread itself has an amazing title and the potential to teach all of us about many different aspects of the countries and cultures we share this planet with. But it is simply about the US.

I know its a product of the overwhelming majority of the sites members being US citizens so there is not much to do about it. I actually hope that changes as Stephen Kings influence reaches even more of the globe

I believe humans as a species have a hell of a lot to learn about one another and its not specifically about any of our countries.

When I first joined, Matt asked me to start another thread about a question I had in regards to how the internet has shrunken us to a very larger neighborhood.

That thread never took off, but this is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping for. I am grateful to be a part of open discussion and hope everyone with an opinion speaks his mind.

I am amazed that for 48 years of my life, I have never heard the great things that Jean has brought up about his childhood... I have since change my attitude that we should be much more like our Bearish friends and the world could/would be a better place.

I hope it continues for the lifetime of this great site and could not agree more with Matt regarding SK's influence. Perhaps the master may stumble upon this thread and mayhap it will spark an idea to write about.

As far as the media goes...We are shoveled only what we are allowed to hear from the mainstream media. Katrina is a great example in how it took HBO to really show the horror that happened there. I would go so far as to say that 65-75% of the people here still do not know or care of how horrible it was and is. Thank goodness for the internet and sites like this to expand our knowledge and give us the true news.

Finally, kids nowadays (mine especially) have friends all over the world from the internet and from the Xbox. It is amusing and a great sense of pride when my son and daughter tell me of their UK, Chinese, CIS, Japan and Mexican contacts. On the other hand, when the Olympics was on, my son asked a history teacher about the new colors of Russia, this teacher did not know enough to discuss it. So thank goodness for the Internet and it's incredible source of information.

For the record, if there is one thing I am all about changing is the US public education program. While it has tried incredibly hard to change and get better with programs like "no child left behind", the kids who are left behind now are the brighter ones left to fend for themselves. If it were not for the social values of school and the fact that I can augment their education here at home with incredible tools from places like Wiki and Google (and here), I would home school my children and know their education would be 1000 times greater than what it is now.

[Jon]

While I maintain my shame I must disseminate that shame to the adults around me.

They fooled a 7 year-old boy!

Congrats assholes.

As for self- education. As I stated, we had only four sources of news (this is what I refer to as isolation.) I was 7 with 4 sources of news...plus parents with the same sources. Sometimes I would hear, second hand (another 7 year-old,) of the NPR precursor from a school mate living in the small town of about 2,000.

Near high school (about 12 years of age) technology caught, then the whole staged release of the 52 Iranian hostages on the very day Regan was inaugurated...I knew I smelled a rat.I realized I was being fed SOME shit. But I didn't know what was true and what was lie. The nearer to high school an explosion of news came upon the scene. I have yet to look back.

I DO remember feeling so ill and ashamed at the movie Red Dawn. Hell...this was 1984...who did they think they were fooling??

I just wanted to say to those Americans who are wholly unsatisfied with this country (and I don't mean just this president or that president, I mean our history as a whole,) don't leave; stay and change it.

SHAMEFUL TRIVIA: What is the first, and only country to detonate a nuclear weapon out of anger?


Maybe soon I will post the reasons I am proud of this nation... but right now I feel too much personal shame.

[jayson]

For the record, if there is one thing I am all about changing is the US public education program. While it has tried incredibly hard to change and get better with programs like "no child left behind", the kids who are left behind now are the brighter ones left to fend for themselves.

While I agree with you in principle, I think that programs such as "No Child Left Behind" are actually worsening the cultural isolation/ignorance of which we are talking in this thread. The program is an abomination which relies far too heavily on standardized testing. It creates even less opportunities for educators to teach children anything other than how to take a standardized test.

[valtr0n]

R_of_G, I was just coming in to post the same thing.

No Child Left Behind hinders schools in every way. Whole districts are punished if one class in one school do poorly. That class could even be a Special Ed class, who are required to take the exact same test everyone else is required. Kids who can't even wipe their own ass, kids who can't talk, kids who have absolutely zero comprehension skills. Required to take the same tests as "normal" kids and being punished by the Federal Government when they don't measure up to par.

[alinda]

Please don't get me started on "special" education! All 3 of my sons attended these classes, and recieved "special ed "diplomas. What a farse this is , when my sons
( who are really proud of thier achievment academically ) present this document, they
are usually shown the door out, its a sad , sad situation.

[jayson]

R_of_G, I was just coming in to post the same thing.

No Child Left Behind hinders schools in every way. Whole districts are punished if one class in one school do poorly. That class could even be a Special Ed class, who are required to take the exact same test everyone else is required. Kids who can't even wipe their own ass, kids who can't talk, kids who have absolutely zero comprehension skills. Required to take the same tests as "normal" kids and being punished by the Federal Government when they don't measure up to par.

Please don't get me started on "special" education! All 3 of my sons attended these classes, and recieved "special ed "diplomas. What a farse this is , when my sons
( who are really proud of thier achievment academically ) present this document, they
are usually shown the door out, its a sad , sad situation.

I worked in a Special Ed school for a couple of years. One thing it showed is exactly the point I was trying to make, and that I suspect Valtron was as well - that there is no one-size-fits-all education plan for children. Different children have different needs and one cannot simply come up with a singular plan to address all of these students and then base federal financial aid to schools upon their performance.

[VastOne]

For the record, if there is one thing I am all about changing is the US public education program. While it has tried incredibly hard to change and get better with programs like "no child left behind", the kids who are left behind now are the brighter ones left to fend for themselves.

While I agree with you in principle, I think that programs such as "No Child Left Behind" are actually worsening the cultural isolation/ignorance of which we are talking in this thread. The program is an abomination which relies far too heavily on standardized testing. It creates even less opportunities for educators to teach children anything other than how to take a standardized test.

Yes....I brought up only a portion of the abomination and you added the additional thoughts and concerns I had. Most teachers I have spoken to despise the program....

[VastOne]

Please don't get me started on "special" education! All 3 of my sons attended these classes, and recieved "special ed "diplomas. What a farse this is , when my sons
( who are really proud of thier achievment academically ) present this document, they
are usually shown the door out, its a sad , sad situation.

I am very proud of their accomplishments and of yours too Linda...

[alinda]

thanks, all of you. I used to say about every other day about my sons
" They were not made with a cookie cutter"

[valtr0n]

A friend of the family has 4 adopted special needs children... ranging from 17 to 21. They're some of the most wonderful, special, beautiful children ever, and I can't imagine the torment they'd be subjected to if they weren't home schooled. You know the taking of standardized tests can't be good for a special needs child's progress. It can't be good for their self-esteem.

This country is in some serious need of reform, in pretty much every aspect, but I don't think either of our presidential candidates can do it. Both say they want to "revise" No Child Left Behind, but fail to outline exactly what "revisions" they plan to make. The same goes for just about every other topic of debate.

It's hard enough for schoolchildren to learn everything about their own country, seeing as we're so large and spread out. Most rural states have a culture all their own, similar to a country in and of itself. The area where I grew up was pretty much unreachable by an outsider until the late 50's. It was easier to go around my area of Kentucky than go through it, so no one did. I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of other places.

Really, there is a change brewing in America. People are starting to see through the curtain. I think the greatest problem facing our nation is the populace's inability to distinguish between true patriotism and rabid nationalism. Many now consider them to be interchangeable, the same thing.

Me? I'm a patriot. I know my country has done wrong. I know what my country is capable of. I know what my country was founded on. I believe my country has the capacity to be great, to do great things for the world. But we have to be willing to see our faults, acknowledge them, fix them, and move on. We've gotten to the point where the government no longer even needs to feed the nationalism. It's become a cultural phenomenon all it's own.

Sorry for the rant, just throwing my hat into the ring.