Cultural isolation, cultural relevance and assimilation

[Jon]

I have heard of the arrogance of Americans. I have seen a post here by my good friend and great bear Jean, that stated, (paraphrased) “When I read books written in America It seems the author thinks America is the whole world. When I read authors outside of the United States, it is clear the author sees the whole world.”

I wonder if folks around the world understand our isolation. I would have to travel 9 hours to reach the next country (Canada) there is very little difference between the American culture and the Canadian culture. Due to instability, only a few resorts in Mexico were deemed “safe enough” to visit for much of my lifetime. Once again, only the upper middle and upper class Americans could afford these resorts, much less the travel and time off work. It has only been about 10 years since prices of travel to, and stay at these resorts were within the financial reach of middle class Americans (lower middle class Americans still remain locked out of such vacations.)

Yes there are international airlines, but up until the last 15 years or so, such flights could not be afforded by the common American.

One can then point to the internet. The internet started with the Soviet launch of Sputnik 1 1957…I think). At that time only these folks’ government had access. The Americans soon followed. But access was to government agencies only. In 1990, just as the U.S.S.R’s unions were faltering, the National Science Foundation took over management of what was then called the NSFNet, and significantly expanded its reach by connecting it to the CSNET in Universities throughout North America, and later to the EUnet throughout research facilities in Europe. Now free to all, but the common American could not afford a PC in 1990. At or about 1997, the prices on PC’s became more reasonable and accessible to the lower middle class of America (there was a HUGE explosion in internet users in 1997.)


The common American has only about 11 years (VIA the internet) to integrate with the world. That means 285 million people have had just over half of a generation (11 years) to integrate with the remaining 6 billion people (I realize not the entire human race is online but I hope you get my point.)

So why do we act like we are the world… because from 1776 until 1997, we were our world. Other cultures were people in text books and other countries were just on our maps and played in the Olympics against us.

We act like the world because our eyes have only comparatively recently been opened. We are ignorant (I mean that in its strictest definition) of much of the balance of humanity.

[Jean]

hmm

hmmmmmmmm

I have grown in a country where nobody could ever go abroad (only chosen few that could go to one of the "socialist" countries... the chosen few who went to "capitalist" ones didn't belong to the "population", they were all party leaders) and where having a friend abroad was something hardly heard of. Behind the iron curtain, in other words. Which cut my country off the rest of the world for 70 (seventy) years.

My dear friends here may have noticed that I am rather conversant with your culture... and with that of European countries, too.

Maybe I am extraordinary? No. Maybe I got all that information in the post-communist era? No again. I could never have appropriated it as a part of my own intellectual/cultural/spiritual experience if I hadn't been introduced to it very early in life.

What books did we - I mean, we all, the whole Soviet Russia (statistically, "the most reading country in the world" we read because we had no life, but it's another story) - read? Don't forget I am talking now about a country which has hundreds great, thousand thoroughly wonderful, and innumerable readable, quite satisfactory, writers. Well, in addition to all the great literature of our own, as kids we all read Winnie the Pooh, Mary Poppins, Alice... nursery rhymes and English ballads... Andersen... we never thought of separating "ours" from "not ours", they were all ours, you see. All those far-away countries with their foreign-sounding names were ours, we integrated into their culture from the cradle. Astrid Lindgren, Gianni Rodari (did you hear of those ones?), they were all published and re-published, in outstanding translations which put those books into the best, most natural sounding Russian... because we've always had always had a real big School of translation, and our big writers and poets gladly busied themselves with rendering someone else's writings into their precious Russian - to make it accessible to everyone.

Translated, and published, and illustrated... and supplied with forewords, commentaries, and afterwords, explaining everything a Soviet reader might not understand... Swift and Rabelais came in version adapted for children as well as in "adult" translations. There were no borders for us, not really.

Every Soviet teenager let the characters of Jack London, Conan Coyle, Dumas, Stephenson, Jules Verne and Raphael Sabatini into his heart; they were his friends and best teachers. Then Dickens, Twain, Chesterton... Poe, Defoe, Harper Lee! Salinger and Vonnegut, you name it, Maupassant and Balzac, Stendhal and Akutagava, they were all ours. Hemingway and Bradbury. Hell, it looks I could go on forever, and I am only mentioning those whom everybody read. Every fucking body.

Of course, the horrible pressure of ideology... Oh, come on. OK, Gone With the Wind were not published, because Margaret Mitchell had a different view on the black population than the one accepted by Soviet people who all grew up on Uncle Tom's Cabin. Some sexually explicit scenes were, I suspect, removed from books and movies. Orwell was out of the question. So what? All others were there for us. They were part of our culture.

And movies, of course! How much better I know French or Italian movies than all my American friends, and by "all" I mean "all". Our own cinema of the Soviet time was - to my mind - the best in the world (too bad you would never see it; and even if you do, you won't have enough background to understand a word... understanding should have been cultivated since babyhood, like our understanding of your culture...), and in addition to it we had all them Europeans, and love of our people for their actors and directors are such that is possible only for those who is part of your own inner world.

Isolation! A student of mine was talking to an American girl who came to work here... My student said she was going to Portugal; the American replied, "Oh, how interesting, I've never been to Latin America." Sweet. Every kid I've ever known here had a map or a globe; do you really have to cross the Atlantic to get one? (Also... how come we know you, inspite of you being so remote? Why has the process been so one-sided?)

History! At school, we have world history, it is compulsory. American history including, and European, of course, too. We do not separate ourselves from the world. We know your history, do you know ours? The answer, my friend, is blowing the big hairy one. Ask an average American (present company, i hope, excluded - I have evidence to suppose you, unlike me, who is a perfectly average Russian, are not average Americans) between whom and whom was World War Two, and who won. I have tried that experiment a few times, and the results were too shocking even for me.

See all that? Isolation is not created by the impossibility of traveling or making direct contacts. It's cultural policy. Those who spent all their lives behind the "iron curtain" here were deeply integrated into world's culture.

When I first came to Paris (and then to Berlin, and then to London), I was taking Parisians (Berliners, Londoners) around their city, explaining which is which and what it is famous for. Of course, France always felt like another motherland for every Russian... But we could have lost it, and we didn't. We have an alternative cultural motherland everywhere.

So, - cui prodest? I think it is obvious. Any ignorance is what allows those at power to manipulate people. You, at least some of you, probably believe, for example, that there was such a period in history as Russian occupation of Estonia (or, say, Latvia) during Soviet times, or other similar nonsense. I can't blame you for that. When someone doesn't have any idea of the countries in question, or of their history before the period in question, or what actually happened during that period, he can be sold anything. That Russia attacked Georgia, among fresher lies. Or don't even get me started on what you were made to believe about Yougoslavia when there still was a Yougoslavia, and about what remained of it when there wasn't.

If part, or - worse - the whole rest of the world is unknown, anything can be believed about it. And another aspect of the same: hearing about a bombing of a far-away country (of course it is always horrible... in an abstract humanist way, like "they are people, too") would feel absolutely different if it was a country whose culture you had known from childhood, whose writers created characters who became your friends, and whom you let into your heart.

[Darkthoughts]

I would echo much of what Jean has said. American History was compulsory when I was at school too. Much of our literature, film and other media has been predominantly American since the beginning of the 1900's at least.

To my mind, America's dischordance with the rest of the world is not so much due to isolation, but more to the youth of America as a modern society...I can't describe what I mean entirely, but when I think of different cultures and societies from around the world, America stands out as the teenager of the global family.

[Jean]

I would echo much of what Jean has said. American History was compulsory when I was at school too. Much of our literature, film and other media has been predominantly American since the beginning of the 1900's at least.

yes... and now, how about French or Italian or Spanish or Russian? American cultural expansion is something most European countries are aware of (and many people there not too happy about), but I have noticed that most other cultures are regrettably ignored.

To my mind, America's dischordance with the rest of the world is not so much due to isolation, but more to the youth of America as a modern society...I can't describe what I mean entirely, but when I think of different cultures and societies from around the world, America stands out as the teenager of the global family.

Very well said!
yes... culture consists of such small things that it accumulates in the course of long centuries... traditions and their rejection, rise and fall of religions, schools of moral and immorality, and primitive art (not primitivist) getting more and more complex and back again, and people learning to speak their thoughts and sing their hearts, and all the great loads of what is of no practucal value... all that can't be reproduced within a few decades, and can't be imitated... especially if the prevailing view (historically) was to get rid of all useless junk that should sink with the old world, and good riddance...

[Darkthoughts]

yes... and now, how about French or Italian or Spanish or Russian? American cultural expansion is something most European countries are aware of (and many people there not too happy about), but I have noticed that most other cultures are regrettably ignored.

Very true. History begins in UK schools with Ancient history (Prehistoric man, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Celts etc) in primary school and then progresses through the ages (Medieval England, Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions, Elizabethans, Tudors, Victorians etc). Within that we learn of other European countries only when we've "discovered", invaded or become allied through royal marriage...which is rather arrogant! But then, alot of history seems an excercise in egotism to me.

We learn Modern History at around 13/14 - which is basically WW2 and then Russian, American, German history...possibly Japan? I didn't pursue it, I chose to do Social and Economic History instead.

[Jon]

Pardon my ignorance Jean, but was the Soviet Union not a collection of various cultures?

If so, then cultural diversity was already in existence, if not, I have yielded to propaganda once again. The truth is we (common folks) know so little of the make up of the U.S.S.R. It goes without saying, then, that we know less of the make up of the former Soviet States.

On another note;you claim your people know of the U.S. culture. Are you certain of that? We have just ended a mighty cold war (It seems like yesterday to we older folks) and I would like to respectfully remind you that propaganda is a two-way street. Given this, how can you be so sure you know of our culture?


And yes, World History as taught in America is a joke and shameful.

[Jean]

Pardon my ignorance Jean, but was the Soviet Union not a collection of various cultures?

If so, then cultural diversity was already in existence, if not, I have yielded to propaganda once again. The truth is we (common folks) know so little of the make up of the U.S.S.R. It goes without saying, then, that we know less of the make up of the former Soviet States.

It's ablolutely true that it was a collection of various cultures! My main point was that in addition to all that we were constantly exposed to endless flow of information about other cultures, European, American, or Asiatic.

On another note;you claim your people know of the U.S. culture. Are you certain of that? We have just ended a mighty cold war (It seems like yesterday to we older folks) and I would like to respectfully remind you that propaganda is a two-way street.

First of all, there has never been any cold war against you here. We were always taught to believe, even in the darkest times, that the USA was a great country (our ally in the Great War, among other things - which was always important to us) which, unfortunately, suffer under horrible government... that point of view may have been naive, but it was never aggressive or in any way urging us to repell anything "good" ("bad" was only pornography, although I agree that its frames were wider than what we understand unders this word now, direct anti-soviet propaganda, and some aspects of violence; the rest was "good") coming from you.

Naive, yes... we loved your Magnificent Seven, and brave young girls by Deanna Durbin, and Uncle Tom, of course, and Pathfinder... we were always on the side of the oppressed, the Indians or the Black or the poor... that was how propaganda worked... and at a'that... we always had enough sources to be able to think for ourselves.

Given this, how can you be so sure you know of our culture?

So, there's no "this"... answering this question generally, I believe that since I have read most of your books, seen most of your movies (including those most young Americans hardly know of), have an idea of what your arts are like and a quite satisfactory amount of information on your history and social structure, as well as having followed your current politics not in the interpretation of our commentators, but in genuine chronicles and speech transcripts, I can say I have some idea, yes; what makes you think otherwise? I have listed only those source any Soviet man had access to; now, of course, there's a lot more.

[cozener]

I don't believe anyone can truly "know" a culture unless they've lived in it for many years...if not been born and raised in it. That said, there are other things about one's own culture that he is inclined to be blind to precisely because he was raised in it. Sometimes, it takes an outsider's perspective. When I'm being an arrogant ass, you can bet that I have no idea that I am being an arrogant ass and won't until someone points it out to me. Sometimes it takes a friend or a marriage counselor to see why an estranged couple is splitting apart. And it sometimes takes an outsider to see a culture's strengths, idiosyncrasies, and shortcomings. This goes for anyone, any culture, anywhere.

[Jean]

I don't believe anyone can truly "know" a culture unless they've lived in it for many years...if not been born and raised in it. That said, there are other things about one's own culture that he is inclined.

I think this is a little different aspect, which would bring us too far from the topic. Following this way of reasoning, we could also say that even if you are born and raised inside a culture, you still know only this little corner of a given culture where you spend your life: this social background, this type of slang, etc; "truly" knowing anything at all is a very difficult thing indeed. Just... let's not exaggerate and lose the point of view of common sense. I maintain that if you have been exposed to literature, cinema, music, poetry, and history of a given country, you can say that you are acquainted with its culture; while when all you know is what your politician say or what your own movies*/books show/tell, you know only your own current propaganda.

* it's always been a mystery to me, for example, why American producers can't invite a Russian consultant? Why do allegedly Russian people have such names as "Drago"? There's never been such a name here. Why do they talk in a language nobody ever talked? OK, cold war, all that, we all must be depicted as Bad Guys with discernable features of degeneration, but why such names and such language?

[Jean]

In case I have been too vague: no, I do not believe that the cultural and educational policy of our government made us experts in American culture, fit to give advice and all that. What they did was to give us amply opportunity to love you, and to know what we love you for.

and oops... I forgot Jack London... I bet I forgot many others, because they were such an integral part of our context I don't really think of them as foreigners... Yes, in almost every house there was multy-volumed (eight, I think? or nine?) collection of his novels and stories, most of which every boy and half the girls considered a matter of personal honor to know almost by heart... I'll add him to that post, it doesn't look all right without him.

[cozener]

I don't believe anyone can truly "know" a culture unless they've lived in it for many years...if not been born and raised in it. That said, there are other things about one's own culture that he is inclined.

I think this is a little different aspect, which would bring us too far from the topic. Following this way of reasoning, we could also say that even if you are born and raised inside a culture, you still know only this little corner of a given culture where you spend your life: this social background, this type of slang, etc; "truly" knowing anything at all is a very difficult thing indeed. Just... let's not exaggerate and lose the point of view of common sense. I maintain that if you have been exposed to literature, cinema, music, poetry, and history of a given country, you can say that you are acquainted with its culture; while when all you know is what your politician say or what your own movies*/books show/tell, you know only your own current propaganda.

Not saying you can't be acquainted with a culture in this way but "acquainted" is about as much as you're going to get. I don't expect to really know what it means to be Russian by reading Russian authors, watching Russian movies, or reading up on Russian history. Besides, as has been pointed out already, there are many cultures that make up Russia. Whatever media I am exposed to would be its own cultural filter. I'd be looking at Russia through the eyes of someone that might have very little in common with some other Russian. The US, while perhaps not as culturally diverse as Russia, is still culturally diverse. Every region with its own particular flavor. I can't see how being exposed to the arts and literature of a culture (things that are subjective...representative of how the artists and authors see the culture...artists and authors of any country being known for seeing things in different ways than others and often being a little different than other folks around them) can make a person truly understand what it is to be of that culture. But acquainted? Yes...absolutely.

* it's always been a mystery to me, for example, why American producers can't invite a Russian consultant? Why do allegedly Russian people have such names as "Drago"? There's never been such a name here. Why do they talk in a language nobody ever talked? OK, cold war, all that, we all must be depicted as Bad Guys with discernable features of degeneration, but why such names and such language?

Lol, because Drago sounds like an evil, mean ass euroasiatic dude with a militaristic accent. Yeah...its stupid. You must understand that some people in entertainment industry play to the lowest common denominator....or rather...what they think is the lowest common denominator...something they're sadly mistaken on. I once heard an interview with the director of Master and Commander. In the book, the antagonists' ship that the heroes (British) were fighting and pursuing was an American vessel. They changed it for the movie to a French ship because they didn't want the American audience to be "confused". You gotta be fucking kidding me. I don't think I've ever been so offended by something thats come out of a directors mouth.

But the movie you're talking about...Rocky 4 (I think) was influenced, not only by Cold War ideas, but also by WWII ideas. Ever since the 1940s we've had a villain archtype burned into our minds of the Nazi superman...a big blond haired, blue eyed villain with a harsh accent. Drago and his wife fit into this mold (even though they’re playing Slavs there is still this mental connection. Rocky is the classic American mutt and an underdog to boot. Everyone loves an underdog…except maybe the British

You’re right though. If you’re going to have a movie with Russians in it you should damn well have someone around that knows about Russians.

[Jean]

Cozener - I added another short post, right before yours. You see, of course, that we agree on all main point; we may slightly differ on what "culture" means, or what "know" means, or other such subtleties, but we basically dont differ that much anyway. It's all about attitude, not expertise; that's what that "acquaintance" is for. That, and becoming increasingly impenetrable for manipulations with every grain of information received - especially when the information is of primarily spiritual or emotional nature, or both.

[alinda]

My oppinion is harsher stll, ( I think) I think it is preposterous to say we've been in isolation, unless you believe that our leaders have isolated us from the truth. I would speculate that any seprarteness is caused by bigotry and appathy for our fellow man.
I know, I know what this sounds like. But we are spoiled here (IMO) and the general public do not even remember there are other people on the planet. I see folk every day who can not see past their own nose!I am not all together think it is an American problem, but I'll bet we outshine our fellowman 5 to 1 . Sorry, but I think its time
our human race wake up to their state of mind, ......ignorance! (((((hugs))) to you all.

wake up

[cozener]

Cozener - I added another short post, right before yours. You see, of course, that we agree on all main point

oops We have our own little detente then

[VastOne]

This is a very good discussion and one that is difficult for me. I have taken all morning to think about my reply and at the risk of pissing a whole lot of folks off, I cannot deny how I feel.

I HATE what we have been, done and become here as Americans and in America.

From the hatred and slaughter of Native Americans, to the extreme racism and slave history, to the horrors of how soldiers were treated in several wars and to the arrogance of shoving our "sacred values" of democracy down the throats of nations thousands of years older than us, I am DISGUSTED.

I value Jean's input and discussion and am actually amazed to hear that he was taught to honor us as allies while we have been been programmed to see his great culture and people as an evil empire. It is something I will share with my children both as an opportunity and something for them to use to break the cycle of ignorance.

Obviously there has been a tremendous amount of good here and a great many wonderful people. Our culture is rich in many ways and we have produced incredible results. From a world perspective, we have not even reached 9 years of age in history, which many believe the actual age a child enters cognitive thought.

I will end this rant by saying that the current leadership here is and has been a freaking joke. We have used a horrible tragic incident to impose even more of our righteousness onto not only to a country proven to have nothing to do with it, but also upon our own people by spying on this e-mail and the phone I will make later on.

I also see way too much of "look at me" "image is everything" in so many people, while they walk right by a person dying because they cannot get insurance to go to the hospital.

What have we become? I am not sure, but I do not like it.....

I will apologize to anyone I offend in advance....

[alinda]

I agree with you.....so if were going to appoligise, then I am sorry to.

[cozener]

Yeah this country has really gone south in the last 8 years. But I'm not going to apologize for it. I had nothing to do with it. I didn't vote for Bush or any of his cadre. And when people not from this country look at us and say that we're ignorant...well...when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

[jayson]

when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

As a Florida resident, I will always be sure 2000 was illegitimate, but that only casts further doubts on our country. It shows that we don't have a press that would dare investigate the truth to it's complete end or a populous that would demand that truth in the election process. That he was able to become President at all is a national disgrace.

[Rjeso]

when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

As a Florida resident, I will always be sure 2000 was illegitimate, but that only casts further doubts on our country. It shows that we don't have a press that would dare investigate the truth to it's complete end or a populous that would demand that truth in the election process. That he was able to become President at all is a national disgrace.

Find a DVD called "Uncounted." It will reveal things about the election that were covered up, such as the blatant manipulation of votes in Ohio that I had never heard of until I saw this documentary.

[VastOne]

when I consider that Bush was elected twice I lose confidence in my ability to argue against this statement. I just shrug and say that I'm not convinced that these 2 elections were entirely legit.

As a Florida resident, I will always be sure 2000 was illegitimate, but that only casts further doubts on our country. It shows that we don't have a press that would dare investigate the truth to it's complete end or a populous that would demand that truth in the election process. That he was able to become President at all is a national disgrace.

IMHO the "press" is as much to blame for many things as anyone else... Good ole RM owns so much and has the movers and shakers in his pockets... Cowards shilling pathetic swill for capitalistic gain...

[jayson]

Find a DVD called "Uncounted." It will reveal things about the election that were covered up, such as the blatant manipulation of votes in Ohio that I had never heard of until I saw this documentary.

Seen it. That and Unprecedented about the Florida election in 2000. Both should be mandatory viewing in schools.

IMHO the "press" is as much to blame for many things as anyone else... Good ole RM owns so much and has the movers and shakers in his pockets... Cowards shilling pathetic swill for capitalistic gain...

I agree, but it's too easy to blame it on Murdoch. We should expect FoxNews to get it wrong. It's the 200 year old newspapers that failed to question things that make me believe the press is not once it once was. I worked for a NPR station at during the buildup to the invasion of Iraq. I saw firsthand how a newsroom can ignore the issues. They refused to question our local representatives about their votes on the invasion. The whole myth of America having a "liberal media bias" is utter nonsense, and quite frankly, sickens me.

[alinda]

I was only appologising to you all who were reading my drivel....
I am grateful, that my family taught me that I belonged to the human race,
That there were no need to consider national lines, or 7 oceans, that as a
planet we were one . As a family we were one. etc....I still have a hard time
telling those who ask, why I do not vote. I follow the guidlines rules and laws
to the best of my abilities, no matter who is in office, to me they all fall short
of honesty themselves. So, I no longer openly defy the gov. I do not protest
or join sit ins, as I did as a teenaged hippie, thinking we could change the world.
I keep my nose to the grindstone, pay my taxes, and usually spare others of my feelings on the subject. With that said....<end rant>

[Rjeso]

*totallyagreeswithLinda*

[VastOne]

I was only appologising to you all who were reading my drivel....
I am grateful, that my family taught me that I belonged to the human race,
That there were no need to consider national lines, or 7 oceans, that as a
planet we were one . As a family we were one. etc....I still have a hard time
telling those who ask, why I do not vote. I follow the guidlines rules and laws
to the best of my abilities, no matter who is in office, to me they all fall short
of honesty themselves. So, I no longer openly defy the gov. I do not protest
or join sit ins, as I did as a teenaged hippie, thinking we could change the world.
I keep my nose to the grindstone, pay my taxes, and usually spare others of my feelings on the subject. With that said....<end rant>

Sweet Alinda,

I think that those old hippie ways need to be rediscovered and protests are needed. There was a lot accomplished then that put the focus on right where it was needed....bless you all!

It seems impossible now to get anyone passionate enough to stand up for a cause. People love to talk about it but sit back and do nothing about it. Is it fear? Apathy?

Personally, I think apathy is a very effective tool....

[alinda]

[QUOTE=alinda;238925]. I would speculate that any seprarteness is caused by bigotry and appathy for our fellow man.

Yep me too.