Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.Originally Posted by Delah
OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation.A never-ending quest is much more like a punishment than any salvation. IMHO of course.
Roland would have understood.
I think Roland loves the road to the Tower. Not the Tower itself. His biggest aim is this. It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.
OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation.
Hmmmm.... i don't know Melike.
I keep thinking of that fragmentary moment of utter despair when he realises for just a split second that he's been there before and he's going to be there again (..and again...) I don't think i've ever seen anguish like that in a Book before. I think your sentence is very true fro the Roland who was on his first quest, but by the time we met him i think it's otherwise for him. I think the clearing would be his salvation, if he can only reach it.
Serenity is the pinnacle of Buddhist "enlightenment." It seems to me that that is what you are equating Christian salvation with.Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.
It's all very well to take the position that perfection is unattainable in reality, but do you really feel that it is not even conceivable as an abstraction? If "salvation" is not a proper word for the perfect, then what is?
Salvation might be perfect (as much as anything can be) but not like in a fairy tale. I don't think so. Roland having tons of children with Susan on a cute little farm and Jack and Eddie are his neighbours.. no way. IMHO salvation is about peace and not about happiness.Serenity is the pinnacle of Buddhist "enlightenment." It seems to me that that is what you are equating Christian salvation with.Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.
It's all very well to take the position that perfection is unattainable in reality, but do you really feel that it is not even conceivable as an abstraction? If "salvation" is not a proper word for the perfect, then what is?
Happiness is very very fragile. So it can never be perfect.
Yeah, he loves it and I love chocolate muffin but if I had to eat chocolate muffin all in my life I would go crazy. Okay, it was a silly example what I meant is that although the Tower is the most important element in Roland's life it can't be the key to his salvation. He must give up his obsession to find the right way.I think Roland loves the road to the Tower. Not the Tower itself. His biggest aim is this. It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.Why would salvation be this perfect? I don't think salvation means "happy ending". I feel salvation offers very little... a little (but very valuable) peace to your soul... a happy sigh at the end of the path. No more.
OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation.
Of course I don't say truth is in my hands. Just my two cents.
Roland would have understood.
Ah. I guess its a question of linguistics, then. Splitting hairs is always fun.
Salvation or Perfection. I do think the Roland with Susan as his wife/Jake as his son in a rejuvenated Gilead is a little ... too perfect?
But Roland himself suggests the possibility that Gilead could be restored. If the Beams can heal themselves. So maybe its more an idealized version of what Roland might find at the end of the path, after he's reached salvation? If the Tower can send him anywhere/anywhen, once he's atoned for his mistakes and reached salvation, what should his end be? Death?
Interesting. Peace of the soul? Peace with all your sins? So Roland's salvation at the top of the tower would be death, and rest? Or just the simple knowledge that he has been true?IMHO salvation is about peace
Lots of good questions.
Roland would have understood.
Okay. But why not? Are you saying that Roland needs to learn to be content with another form of salvation because of the fact that Gan will not provide a fairy tale ending, or more like Gan will not provide a fairy tale ending because of the fact that Roland needs to learn to be content with another form of salvation? I mean, theoretically, an all-powerful God could establish such a heaven, right? If lasting happiness is just not possible for people because of how we are, basically, then how does that differ from Brice's suggestion that Roland actually needs to remain unfulfilled?
That's why I say that death (and maybe only death) is salvation for Roland. And one happy and relived sigh before he reaches the end of the path.
Roland would have understood.
the hero's journey
Hm.
Say, this conversation has reminded me of a rather obscure example. If you can find a copy, you might want to check out Superman: Man of Tomorrow #15, titled "Heart of Hell."
This was one of the crossovers to D.C. Comics' old "Day of Judgment" series. Honestly, as a whole, that wasn't all that good. The plotline was kind of corny, (the writing in that company at that time was mostly amateurish) but I really dug this one issue for what it had to say.
What was going on was that, in an uprising against God and the supernatural order, all of hell had been released to terrorize the earth.
So, Neron, one of the principal demons behind it, then captured Superman, to prevent his interference, and held him alone in the empty underworld while other agents of good, mortal and angelic, were assembling to fight.
Knowing that he was not damned or certainly consigned, Neron had no assurance that Superman could not escape, so instead of torturing him, he trapped him in illusion, giving him a paradise and thinking that he wouldn't even try to flee if he forgot where he really was.
Plus, any time that something let the hero see through the deception, the demon lord would learn from that and cast a more sophisticated new hypnosis, thereby more convincing. (You may realize that this is somewhat like the problem of getting human beings to accept The Matrix.) In the case of Superman, though, not even artificial conflict and virtual accomplishments worked for long.
He was constantly driven by his true love for the real Lois Lane, and his genuine commitment to the actual human race. He just would not be satisfied even with having every wish that he had for himself granted, something which the devil could not understand."You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
-- Abraham Lincoln
I am not into comics at all but now you made me curious about this one.
Roland would have understood.
Cool.
It's also interesting to notice that it was inked by a virtually unknown artist named Jeff Gan.
The blurb there concerning that Superman issue reminds me of the plot behind the Red Dwarf novel Better Than Life.Spoiler:Come to think of it the new mini series Red Dwarf: Back to EarthSpoiler:
Ok, not really relevant to the discussion but it's interesting how these themes all pop up in different places though. Of course one major difference in Roland's case is that it's all reality for him, whether he's on his long walk towards the Tower or in his final happy place wherever/whatever that entails.
Hmmmm.... i don't know Melike.
I keep thinking of that fragmentary moment of utter despair when he realises for just a split second that he's been there before and he's going to be there again (..and again...) I don't think i've ever seen anguish like that in a Book before. I think your sentence is very true fro the Roland who was on his first quest, but by the time we met him i think it's otherwise for him. I think the clearing would be his salvation, if he can only reach it.Roland, is like a prisoner of a never ending love story about a love that can never be discovered, conquered truly. He loses it as soon as he has it. And he keeps being passionetely in love, and his feelings never turns into a 'peaceful but habitual' love.Yeah, he loves it and I love chocolate muffin but if I had to eat chocolate muffin all in my life I would go crazy. Okay, it was a silly example what I meant is that although the Tower is the most important element in Roland's life it can't be the key to his salvation. He must give up his obsession to find the right way.I think Roland loves the road to the Tower. Not the Tower itself. His biggest aim is this. It may be more like hell for Roland not to have a Tower to seek.OMG, it sounds like hell and not like salvation.
Of course I don't say truth is in my hands. Just my two cents.
To attain salvation Roland has to do two things.
1) Not let Jake fall. He caught Walter once. He could catch him again. And he could have caught up with him that day if he really wanted to. I never got why Roland swallowed Walter's story that he had to choose between catching him or saving Jake.
2) He needs to cry off once the Tower is saved. The Tower is saved after Algul Siento with the freeing of the Breakers. There was no reason to pursue the Tower after that. The CK was helplessly stuck on the Tower. Mordred's only purpose in life was to kill Roland. Eventually Mordred would have came for him and Roland could have dealt with him then.
I don't think Tull damned him. After all, everyone there was trying to kill him. He was just defending himself. Of course, its not known what else Roland did before the story started that might have damned him. Actually, I don't think King was as successful as painting Roland as a "bad man" as he intended.
As far as what happens when Roland does achieve salvation? I like to think that he, Jake, Oy, and Susannah all go back to Gilead to reestablish that nation after burying Eddie. (sadly, this is one death that couldn't be avoided) With the help of Jake and Susannah Roland trains more gunslingers, rebuilds his father's government, and helps to bring order to back to Mid-world. Jake succeeds Roland and starts a long line of benevolent rulers and everyone in Mid-world is filled with warm fuzzies for at least a thousand years.
If I can make clear just one point on this thread, I'd really like for it to be that the word "salvation" does have a standard definition. Most of you are talking about liberation from the loop, and calling any means to that end which you prefer by this one term. I know this talk is predicated on the original question--...but maybe all that it should come down to, in fact, is that "everyone" should just stop saying that Roland may achieve salvation. To be saved, there must be some savior other than oneself. If you believe that Roland must release himself from the loop by his own initative, that's fine, but I think that you should say that that will be his "happy ending," his "liberation," his "release," the "truth he must learn," or whatever. Just say so if you think that no one (and/or no One) is going to save him. I'd just like it to be clear that if that is the case, then it does not make sense to say that what he will have is "salvation."
Cozener: One question, atm; If Jake survives, that means that Stephen King dies. Am I right? Does that matter, in your view?
I agree with all of this. I think his biggest stumbling block to freedom from his loop is his belief that he must go to the Tower above all else. One day I hope he would come to the realization that even though he is sworn to got to the Tower, the Tower itself is his damnation.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Ah...I'd forgotten about that. Damn King for writing himself into the story! Well...I guess that blows my idea of Jake succeeding Roland as ruler of Gilead, doesn't it? Hmmm...ok...then Roland goes to find his Calla piece of ass, marries her and produces a blood heir.
There.
Its fixed.
Yes, if nothing else, the Dark Tower series stands as a warning that obsession can take a large toll and, as we see with Roland and his loved ones, not just on the person obsessed.
Life is not a fable. Not to say that there's no place for morality within it, but it is seldom easy to take a simple moral from events. Real humans have layered personalities because real truth has deep complexities. I think that King did quite an admirable job of exploring his theme without truncating it. Fanaticism is indeed bad, but what would you have left if you just threw out all of that? You have to stand for something, after all. One man's commitment may be foolishness to another, but what good is freedom, unless you know what it is for?"...a little arrogance (or even a lot) isn’t such a bad thing, although your mother undoubtedly told you different. Mine did. Pride goeth before a fall, Stephen, she said... and then I found out—right around the age that is 19 x 2—that eventually you fall down, anyway. Or get pushed into the ditch."
~ Stephen King,
"On Being Nineteen"
My basic problem is that a thousand years is really not very long. And I think that Roland Deschain would agree....Roland trains more gunslingers, rebuilds his father's government, and helps to bring order to back... and everyone in Mid-world is filled with warm fuzzies for at least a thousand years."Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."
~ Psalm 127:1
good question .......everybody's pretty much covered how i feel but ......i wish the man could rest .......its seems like it would wear you down ....that why Sai King always constatly refers to him as looking tired and worn out .....that was my first hint at his fate being something that would keep him going till he drops..........but i never could have imagined the way it turned out........King is sneaky with his shit sometimes
I'm nonviolent with those who are nonviolent with me. But when you drop that violence on me, then you've made me go INSANE, and I'm not responsible for what I do
Malcolm X
This is actually something I have thought about a lot and have had dreams about. Enough to where my wife would cuss me out the next morning for screaming at the top of my lungs while sleeping "ROLAND NO."
Honestly I see the horn being much more than a symbol. Roland thought at one time the tower was a symbol or my gans physical form. I think like in his dreams he is supposed to blow the horn upon entering the field of roses. Also a lot of people I talk to see everything start over once Roland begins the cycle again. I do not think keystone earth does this though, nor the tower. I could almost see Roland coming to the tower the first time when the 4th beam was about to break and seeing structures outside the field of roses later destroyed by beam quakes.
As for what Roland would see upon entering the door, this is from both dream and imagination. I see Roland opening the last door and stepping into the ruins of Gilead, with lots of noise surrounding him. The noise he associated with new york. It turns out to be construction and finds that the tet corporation after learning of the door under the dixie pig found a way there. Also they started to build their own doors.
He then goes to the training grounds where he faught cort entering through the east doorway. He finds a single person their of incredible beauty but at the same time kind of ruggid and used up. This person turns out to be the ghost of arthur eld. Roland in shock trys to flee believing this to be the last trick of Walter. But were there used to be just openings in the hedgewalls are now Ironwood doors.
The one facing west is marked Keystone New York. The one facing east is not marked. Arthur tells him if he steps through the New York door he would be reunited with Eddie, Susanna, Jake and Oy and work for the Tet Corp in training gunslingers to protect the rose and the tower (this time through Eddie, Jake and oy would live, but there would be a battle on the scale of Jerhico Hill between the Crimson King, Walter, the red army and Roland and the Tet which would leave the tet alive but badly injured). Arthur could not promise what would be behind the unmarked door.
Roland opens it and tries to step through but his body acts as though it has smacked a wall and falls down (think drawing of the three). But The body on the ground is just a Corpse. On the other side of the door Roland walks along a path for weeks, but he cannot see the beam above him. Finaly he comes to clearing. There at the clearing is his mother and father, Cort, Cuthbert, Allan, Sheemie and Susan (his age) sitting in a speaking circle eating a feast. Upon taking susans hand he instantly rushes through the sky and has thousands of visions (from the early days of the prim till now). When he awakes he is in a very large room with just a throne and on the other end of the room a stained glass window.
He looks through a window carved into the wall and sees hundreds of feet below a large red body of land which at first he mistakes for a sea of blood then realizes its the field of roses. He rushs over and tried to open the door when gan bellows "You should have listened gunslinger...death, but not for you." The door instantly stops looking important and falls to the ground. Roland screams for hours but then sits on Gan's throne his head begins to hurt and his memorys start fading.
The last voice he hears for 1919 years is The Crimson King's voice saying "Lets see how long it takes you to go insane little god. Lets see how long it takes before KA makes another fool quest over and over to stop you. You made it further than I did...but even as an agent of the white, you'll soon be just like me. And as the first beam snaps and ends thousands of lives you'll know only one thing, breaking is bliss and I say Thankya!"
Although that list bit of him being trapped in the tower isn't what I'd like to happen, I dreamed it and it kind of still creeps me out.
Last edited by Malice; 12-20-2009 at 10:00 PM. Reason: The post made after this was a shortened version of this, so I edited out the unimportant stuff.
But I agree with the others, my version of roland opening the final door is the clearing at the end of the path with susan standing their waiting. But for some reason when he steps through this door I see his body acting as though it has hit a wall and falling back (like in the drawing of the three) and only his soul stepping in the doorway. And seeing the Tet (not dead but very badly injured) burying him next to what the tet corp believes to be Susan's grave in Mejis.
Hi Malice,
for some reason your earlier post needed to be approved. I did that so it should be public now. Sorry the inconvenience.
sarah
Lalalalaaaa, lalalalaaa
Lalalalaaaa, lalalalaaa
sugarpop <3
Not a problem, thanks for getting to it so fast. This is the first message board I've been to were people actually do things like that. I like it here.
I honestly believe his salvation is finding love again with another woman, to choose her and their love and cry off the Tower. Do the opposite of what happened to him which led to the quest. I think that was missing from his last journey. He loved again but it was just his ka-tet. I do want to another journey with Roland as I love this character and if so, I would hope it's with new characters.
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