What would Roland's salvation be?

[Lily-sai]

Kidd Ikarus' writing somehow suddenly reminded me of King Arthur's final resting place, Ynys Witrin, in the Isle of Avalon, where, according to the legend, he is sleeping and awaiting for the time when world will need him again.

Like Feanor waiting in the Halls of Mandos.

*sighs happily*
Yes, oh yes. Till the Dagor Dagorath comes upon them and Fëanor will be called back. Jayson,

[pathoftheturtle]

sal⋅va⋅tion salvation
[sal-vey-shuh n] –noun
1. the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.
2. the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
3. a source, cause, or means of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
4. Theology. deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

re⋅demp⋅tion redemption
[ri-demp-shuh n] –noun
1. an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed.
2. deliverance; rescue.
3. Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.
4. atonement for guilt.
5. repurchase, as of something sold.
6. paying off, as of a mortgage, bond, or note.
7. recovery by payment, as of something pledged.

a⋅tone⋅ment atonement
[uh-tohn-muh nt] –noun
1. satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter ) Theology. the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.
3. Christian Science. the experience of humankind's unity with God exemplified by Jesus Christ.
4. Archaic. reconciliation; agreement.

ab⋅so⋅lu⋅tion absolution
[ab-suh-loo-shuh n] –noun
1. act of absolving; a freeing from blame or guilt; release from consequences, obligations, or penalties.
2. state of being absolved.
3. Roman Catholic Theology.
a. a remission of sin or of the punishment for sin, made by a priest in the sacrament of penance on the ground of authority received from Christ.
b. the formula declaring such remission.
4. Protestant Theology. a declaration or assurance of divine forgiveness to penitent believers, made after confession of sins.

"The thought of absolution had never crossed Roland’s mind, and he found the idea that he might need it (or that this man could give it) almost comic."
--DT5

Roland is a pragmatic sort. I think that this is all that his alleged disinterest in philosophy means; he’s not much for metaphors or abstract assurances. Yet he is quite involved in the meaning of life... it's just that he wants practical results.
In terms of his own sins, I think that he’d be more interested in atoning than he is in absolution. Don’t forget that King did not promise salvation. What he said was that what the horn means is that Roland has a chance for redemption.

[pathoftheturtle]

I was wrong. In the author's note, SK wrote, "...I hope the reader will see that by discovering the Horn of Eld, the gunslinger may finally be on the way to his own resolution. Possibly even to redemption. ..." That's what I was thinking of, but I had overlooked what is written a few pages before:

"This is your sigul, whispered the fading voice that bore with it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer evening -- O lost! -- a stone, a rose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.
This is your promise that things may be different, Roland -- that there may yet be rest. Even salvation.
A pause, and then:
If you stand. If you are true."

So I guess that even if King did not promise "salvation," the Dark Tower does.

[megaknight]

During the quest, Roland says (i think in the fourth book) that he would tell his ka-tet the story of how he lost the belt his mother made for him, but i don't recall ever hearing that story. I think that that item would be the key to Roland being released from the loop.

[Letti]

He had never told the story of the lost belt. Or it wasn't written down in the series.
I don't think it could help Roland any way to get out of the loop but the idea is interesting. Why do you think so?

[megaknight]

because it would show that he still loves his mother, even after she cheated on his father, and that he still has the ability to forgive.

[Letti]

I think he did love his mother and he could forgive her but not as a child. He needed more time but I think the Gunslinger we met in the desert had forgiven her.

[Russ]

With the whole Mordred part, I thought part of the book hinted that he could have cared less about CK and the tower? That all he wanted was someone to just care about him, really.

[Letti]

With the whole Mordred part, I thought part of the book hinted that he could have cared less about CK and the tower? That all he wanted was someone to just care about him, really.

But he couldn't express his feelings, could he?

[Woofer]

I think he did love his mother and he could forgive her but not as a child. He needed more time but I think the Gunslinger we met in the desert had forgiven her.

I think you're right, Letti.

[John Blaze]

I think there's objects in the series which are invested with Power. His guns, of course, the Horn of Eld, the Rook's head. But the belt seems like such an afterthought, and even though i'm sure it was important to him, it wasn't an important part of the story.

Also, I think King had alot more story to tell than he ended up doing, thus the comics. Whether they are canon or not is another discussion.

[Empath of the White]

This bugged me a bit. I kind of figured it had something to do with forgiving Gabrielle though. I'm surprised it hasn't been addressed in one of Furth's prose pieces at the end of the comics.

[Russ]

With the whole Mordred part, I thought part of the book hinted that he could have cared less about CK and the tower? That all he wanted was someone to just care about him, really.

But he couldn't express his feelings, could he?

Only the feeling of hatred he had for Roland in the end lol. I haven't read the last book in over a year (re-reading the series again for the third time, on the second book) but I remeber a part where he is watching Roland, Oy and Sussanah and wishing he could be with them, then hating them for having each other.

[ola]

I think that Roland's redemption would include making different choices along the way: saving Susan so she could have their baby (continuing the line of Eld and Tower-protectors), for one.

...these diferent choices would mean that Roland is changed. Become less obsessed and more human. Able to see when the quest is over, and able to turn back to the ones he loves - instead of becoming so possessed by a symbol (the Tower) that he must climb it himself no matter what the cost.

So I guess salvation = never going to the Tower, but protecting it through other means so that the universe doesn't explode.

(I tried not to go on and on about my theories of "how", it was tough! )

[LadyHitchhiker]

I think his salvation could be Letti.

[pathoftheturtle]

Roland or Mordred?

ola: It's good to stay on topic, so I hate to pick, but I just can't seem to sort cause and effect in your post. Do you think that he'll change because he makes different choices, or vice versa?

I have long thought it ironic that the dream of many, to change their past, is what we here call damnation.

[ola]

Do you think that he'll change because he makes different choices, or vice versa?

I think that he learns to make different choices because of what he learns from past versions of his quest.

[pathoftheturtle]

From the Tower, in other words.

You might be right, tho, that not going there anymore will finally be his resolution.

Whether that would constitute salvation, however, I'll need to further think upon.

[Brice]

And what would he be needing salvation from?

[pathoftheturtle]

The Red, of course! The crumbling chaos. If not for the fact that his world had moved on, he would not have promised himself to climb the Tower in the first place.

Roland was nodding. In his eyes Susannah saw an entirely new expression: glad surprise. Maybe he does know how to win, she thought. "Then eventually what has moved on might return again," the gunslinger said. "Perhaps Mid-World and In-World." He paused. "Perhaps even Gilead. The light. The White."

-- Part Four, Chapter III

If the Dark Tower is healed, then Roland could stay in a Gilead that might have been. One without TMIB. Now, that would be deliverance.
Short of being sent home, though, to cry off will be no more than his own hard decision.

[Delah]

Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

[alinda]

love saves the day

[LadyHitchhiker]

I agree, Linda.




Roland's salvation could be dying, reincarnating as a house cat and being adopted by me!

[pathoftheturtle]

Roland's salvation could be dying, reincarnating as a house cat and being adopted by me!

Are you sure that you could handle that, LadyH?

Roland in a Gilead without the Man in Black, with the Tower safe ... that sounds ideal. And if the Tower is the nexus of all worlds and all times, if Roland gets this incarnation of it right, it could be possible. Maybe the door at the top of the Tower would take him to a Gilead where Susan is his wife and Jake their son, Eddie and Susannah are gunslingers, and the quest isn't necassary because Roland saved the Tower (and himself).

Yar.
Nice, though I don't really expect that such would be Roland's ultimate destiny. We can't forget that even without the evil which came to destroy Gilead, there was quite a bit of evil inherent within it. Part of Roland's sin comes from the sins of his fathers. Yet, the point I was making is that redemption of him thus would necessarily involve redemption of them. "The king and the land are one." As the last son of All-World-that-was, Roland would presumably move forward to rebuilding from what is left after the Crimson King, assuming that he were so authorized by Gan.

[Brice]

I think Roland's salvation is that he can't escape his quest. He must always seek and that's what he needs.