5 - completely satisfied
4 - satisfied, but have some minor problems with the ending
3 - satisfied, but have some major problems with the ending
2 - not satisfied, although there are things I liked about the ending
1 - completely dissatisfied
I don't remember if I ever posted to declare, but I voted here for option #2 -- "not satisfied, although there are things I liked about the ending ." One thing I liked is the openness in the very nature of it. I don't think that TDT is really all done.
After rereading the scene, I can certainly see how one could think that though.Originally Posted by Brice
Even an imaginary Roland in her mind wouldn't tell her to throw away those guns.
Imaginary Roland would send her west after making her cry pardon!
Oh, I can see it, but
The throwing away of the gun has always bothered me - it just seemed so sad. A gun from the line of Eld just being thrown into a bin! The guns are part of the white surely and throwing them away seems wrong.
However on my second reading her saying ''it hurt her heart'' made me not quite so sad (and a little angry) about the guns being thrown away. I guess she had to get rid because they wouldnt work and she is no longer a working gunslinger. As much as this makes sense I still dont like it. However, when roland says tht he is glad she has it in case she ends up in Todash darkness it eased it a bit.
I hate the scene where she leaves Roland and think this is much of why I dont like her!! Throwing away the gun shows disdain for the line of eld and the ways of gunslingers.
...Eddie laughed, although now the tears were coursing down his cheeks. "Oh, wonderful. Wonderful! Just what I need! My brother Henry. He was a gunslinger. In a place called Viet Nam, that was. It was great for him. ..."~ DT IIDon't get me wrong, I don't think that Steven Deschain (or John Kennedy) were all wrong... but it's so damned easy to lose focus. As Callahan might say, "Behold the paradox!" Symbols can serve the White, but no symbol can BE the White.
No offense meant. Here's another DoTT quote which I think is close to where you guys are coming from:There is a point in there that I believe actually is valid, to a certain degree. Most people are naturally prone to carelessness. Thoughtlessness. I don't worry about Susannah, though."... They are as they are because they live in the light, the gunslinger thought suddenly. That light of civilization you were taught to adore above all other things. They live in a world which has not moved on.
If this was what people became in such a world, Roland was not sure he didn't prefer the dark. 'That was before the world moved on,' people said in his own world, and it was always said in tones of bereft sadness ... but it was, perhaps, sadness without thought, without consideration."
I take a different meaning from that scene."Down in Alabama, 1955,
Not many of us here tonight were then alive;
A young Baptist preacher led a bus boycott,
He led the way for a brand new day without firing a shot.
Don’t say it can’t be done
The battle’s just begun
Take it from Dr. King
You too can learn to sing
So drop the gun.
..."~ Pete Seeger
Hello everyone, this is my first post to the site, so bear with me for probably a long first post. First off, just wanted to say that I love the DT series. I actually started reading with book 2 that I randomly found in the ship's library during a deployment many years ago. I was instantly hooked even though I was missing some back story from book 1. I began reading with book 1 and have read all 7 now this past year, so book 2 twice now.
I've been reading most of the posts in this thread and I have to say, like many others, that the ending is probably the right ending and as much as it frustrated me, I too felt that it was the right ending. I knew for a couple of books before 7 that Roland would probably end up repeating his quest as he does seem to be ancient.
Anyway, I felt that while the ending was appropriate, it felt a bit rushed and not as fulfilling as it could have been. Here are my thoughts:
First, I didn't like the whole pregnancy saga. When Susannah was first raped by the demon in the speaking circle, I suspected it might lead to a demon child, but not in the form of a CK/Roland/spirit from Discordia hybrid. It seemed too contrived and somehow, suspension of disbelief aside, even though it was explained logically and reasonably, it just didn't seem plausible. It seemed like a James Bond villian plot, to save the sperm from the oracle, somehow knowing that Roland would couple with it, etc., etc. Also, with all the buildup through book 5/6, Mordred dies almost too clumsily and easily... so much for CK's master plan. It was as if King ran out of ideas for the character, and as King himself admits in book 6 or 7, sometimes authors kill characters they don't know what to do with. Which brings to mind the Tick-tock man. His character was introduced somewhat elaborately in book 3 with Jake's capture in Lud... Flagg saves his life and I thought he would serve some great purpose later on in another book, except in book 4 he randomly dies in the Emerald Palace, like King lost where he was going to go with him.
Two, Flaggs death was extremely disappointing. The whole is he mortal or not mystique erased so easily. Why would an agent of the CK (Mordred) kill one of the CK's best Lieutenants? Or why would CK let his son kill one of his best Lieutenants, a guy who has literally brought down many of the other worlds, not to mention mid-world. It just didn't seem appropriate to end Flagg so easily after so much mystique about Flagg, the wizards, etc. throughout the novels.
Third, on a side note, do the wizards glasses remind you guys of the polantias (SP?) from LotR? I know that was an influence on King anyway. CK destorys the remaining wizard's glasses when he runs from his castle... did that annoy anyone else? I know he knew his plans were going awry, thanks to Roland, and if he couldn't have them he didn't want anyone else to either, but could he not have used them as a weapon against Roland (as with the grapefruit) at the tower instead of sneetches?
Fourth, I did like the character of Patrick, but as mentioned in earlier posts, his drawing into mid-world at the foot of tower road seems a little too convenient as with his ability to create or erase anything he draws, I knew that was how the CK would die and was glad for it, but it seemed all too easy for Roland's last trial before reaching the tower.
Fifth, If Roland can't remember any of his previous iterations in the DT quest loop, how can he ever learn or change his behaviour except through some sort of instinct or intuition. The whole loop thing brings up another point, if Roland is constantly repeating his quest, no matter how different it is each time through, then he always saves the beams and the towers. So, does that mean the tower or the beams is ever really in danger at all? If Roland has saved the tower/beams countless times before, it sort of cheapens the journey because he always does it and there's no consequences because he'll just do it again. What if he doesn't succeed in one of the iterations? Would the loop end with the end of the universe?
Sixth, Susannah's happy ending... I'm all for happy endings, but it didn't feel right to me. Throwing away a gun of Eld bothered me as well. I thought maybe she would keep it, saving it for a day she might need to return to mid-world or be drawn into it or at least just incase the agents of the CK were on her train again. Also, why would the gun change to the plugged version... they had brought them to worlds before with no such effects, perhaps it was what she thought when she went through the door, somehow she knew she was going to her new life and knew she could leave that part of her behind, but I still didn't like it. I also hated Susannah, she seemed to be much more of a liability than an aid at times, especially in Detta mode.
Seventh, why wouldn't Susannah go to the keystone world, why would she go to one of the worlds on another arc of the beam or level of the tower? Wouldn't there be versions of Eddy and Jake in the keystone world? When Eddy and Jake died I was thinking that somehow they would restore the Tet by drawing a Jake and Eddy from another world or from the keystone world, forming an even stronger Tet maybe. If she went back to the keystone world she could have her happy ending, reunite with Eddy and Jake, and possibly continue to protect the tower/rose working with the Tet corporation. In addition, Jake and Eddy were brothers in that world... Jake was adopted maybe? Seems a bit of a stretch.
Eigth, I felt like there were some hints towards the end of book 7 of a relationship between Roland and Susannah. I remember Roland thinking something about Susannah in book 6 I believe. Susannah makes a few references about Roland that make it seem like they might have been going toward a Roland/Susannah relationship. I know it would be a slap in the face to Eddy, but their union could have possibly resulted in a true son for Roland and a white counterpart to the red Mordred with Mordred taking CK's place and Susannah/Roland son taking Roland's place leading to a much greater confrontation between the two siblings later on.
Ninth, I've read a lot of King before and I know he doens't always explain a lot of things, which is good because it lets you imagine what you want without exactly codifying what things should be. However, I was hoping for more explanation about North Central Positronics/La Merc and other subsidiaries. What their relationship was to the tower and the beams, the cyborg guardians they created, etc. What exactly was going on there... I know there is some explanation with the magic versus science with the much more perfect magic doors and the poor scientific doors created by NCP, but I thought there could have been more elaboration about the beams or the scientific aspects of the tower or something. I was intrigued by the station at the start of the bear/turtle beam in book 3 with the yellow and black lines, I just wish there was more explanation behind them I guess.
Tenth, what will happen to black 13? It's only safe until 2001 I think. How will Roland's repeating loop iterations affect all the timelines in the other worlds, does everything in every world reset? Does the world keep moving on around Roland even though his quest restarts?
Last, I think, just always wondered about the exact relationship between mid-world and the keystone world other than the twin aspect, is mid-world our world many thousand years in the future or did mid-world advance much faster than our own world, it's just a little confusing given all the references to it being a later when of our world since NCP is in the keystone world, but not as powerful yet. I think the brain machines in book 6 or 7, where the kids from the calla go at the arc 16 experimental station, mention that they have been doing things since the ten thousands, so it leads me to believe that the great old ones were at least 8 thousand years more advanced than we are in the keystone world, and obviously would have to be to invent telepathic machines and robots.
Oh, the CK himself... I was expecting a bit more than a crazy old man throwing sneetches. Again, a lot of mystique surrounding this character throughout the novels and even in other novels, such as Insomnia. Extremely anti-climactic when we get to his castle and to finally meeting him at the tower. He commands vampires, low men, can toi, etc. in countless worlds, established a network of corporations and influences in countless worlds, and engineered the downfall of many... yet we get an old man in red throwing sneetches. Doesn't seem like the guy Bango Skank would wish to hail nor the dark and demonic influence he should have been. Hmm, just expected more from the notorious Crimson King.
So, this was extremely long, just some thoughts about the ending and thanks for reading. DT is amazing and I was glad to read it and will again, just some thoughts.
Welcome! Many of your points are addressed on other threads in this forum. I hope you enjoy looking around, and we'll hopefully have other discussions. Here & Now..Ka.Good question.
This is very interesting. We usually associate morality with conscious thought. It could be that our normal thinking is not as crucial at is assumed by our normal thinking, but it's certainly worth considering what that might mean to TDT.
Gee, I was hoping that someone would contribute more to this by now. Oh, well. Here’s one possible interpretation: It’s a basic tenet of Judeo-Christian culture that mankind received the Bible through Divine revelation so that we’d at least know what we should do well enough to make informed choices. Of course, many people don’t believe that, which is compounded by the fact that those who do still disagree over numerous points as religious sects. Thus, SK may feel that all of us are, like Roland, expected to guess, and then judged by God.
Personally, I’ve never considered that element of the DT ending to be particularly realistic, but I’m not very agnostic.
I'd submit that you either are agnostic or you are not. There are not really degrees with such a thing.
There are, though. Really. One may be a fully committed theist, a confident atheist, or anywhere in between. Few people actually have any extreme assurance.
I know what you mean, but an agnostic believes things are essentially unknowable and there aren't really degrees of that. Something is either knowable or it is not. There are numerous shades or denominations within all other points of view be it theist, atheist, etc..., but I still must maintain that one is either completely agnostic or not agnostic. One must'nt doubt their doubt, ya' know?
Yar. Technically, I should have said "I'm not very close to becoming agnostic." I knew that you'd know what I meant, but on behalf of those less familiar with the subject, thanks for clarifying.
In Other Words...
But just for the record, even though I'm not "very agnostic," I do think I'm pretty Zen.
Okay, I wasn't clarifying really. I was a bit mixed up myself. It happens...quite a lot actually.
Just completed the series, guys!! And i found the ending completely acceptable if not memorable...But was surprised by the contempt shown by Stephen King in the afterword. Dunno who he is pissed at...
I agree. It's palpably adequate.
IMO, SK was just uptight because his chosen career is not all sunshine.
If you're referring to the 'know me through my work' stuff I don't think he intended to be contemptuous. I think maybe some fans were also becoming a bit of a nuisance invading his privacy. Also bear in mind he was going through a rough patch at the time still in pain from his accident. (I think.)
Oh, yes, that's very true. Some had gone far beyond being "a bit of a nuisance." I don't mean to trivialize King's problems. (although there's an up-side as well + many other people also go through trials about as bad.) I thought that we were talking about the "I'd end it here" stuff written earlier on.
Ok, so Roland finds redemption...then what? 'spoilers'
(Do apologize, can't get the spoiler thing to work, if you haven't read the series, then DO NOT read on)
So we all know the point of the story, Roland finds the horn, repeats his quest blah blah blah finally does everything 'right' and finds redemption...so, what then?
Are we meant to believe that Rolands quest has nothing to do with saving 'everything' but just a personal gain?
The Tower doesn't want to be saved? Gan doesn't care either way? as long as Roland finds redemption, then everything's fine and dandy? sorry, but no, thats ridiculous, unless you take the side story of SK himself being Gan or Gans secretary seriously (implying that it really was all just fiction, nothing before the events of the mohaine desert actually occurred) why wouldn't Gan or the Tower take more serious steps to help itself and help Roland save the Tower? If the Tower is falling, why in gods name would it take its own resources, magic and energy to waste on torturing Roland by looping his quest over and over? IT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE !
I had to take the ending with a pinch of salt, but if we're all honest, can't we agree that we find the ending made no sense whatsoever and was thoroughly confusing and disappointing?
I think he always saves the Tower. That's his ka, if you like. It is suggested that he has been doing this numerous times before even this cycle.
The Tower/Gan, being the centre of space and time probably knows this when he/it sends him back.
Yeah but he never saves the Tower does he? even Mia said it was almost impossible, but by only using magic, and since most of the magic is gone, the Tower really can't be saved by Humans, not by slow mutants or the demons of the prim, so how can it be his ka to constantly save something that has never been saved?
I actually don't remember what the reason was (if any), why Roland had to start all over again. But I do know I found the ending highly unsatisfactory (to put it extremely mildly), as I also found the last three of the Dark Tower books. I read The Worm Ouroborus back in high school, it was done once, and I don't think it should have been done again.
I loved the first four books of the series, even re-reading them a few times, but those last three, let me use a literary term here - yech!
I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.
And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...
Roland had to perform the quest again because he did have the Horn of Eld. Remember the series is based on the epic poem "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came". There is a line in the poem that mentions Roland blowing his horn upon his arrival at the tower. When Roland reached the tower he did nto have the horn since it fell with Cuthbert in battle.
Here are the last stanza's of the poem and the last line mentions Roland blowing the horn.
What in the midst lay but the Tower itself?
The round squat turret, blind as the fool’s heart,
Built of brown stone, without a counter-part
In the whole world. The tempest’s mocking elf
Points to the shipman thus the unseen shelf
He strikes on, only when the timbers start.
Not see? because of night perhaps?—Why, day
Came back again for that! before it left,
The dying sunset kindled through a cleft:
The hills, like giants at a hunting, lay,
Chin upon hand, to see the game at bay,—
“Now stab and end the creature—to the heft!”
Not hear? when noise was everywhere! it toll’d
Increasing like a bell. Names in my ears
Of all the lost adventurers my peers,—
How such a one was strong, and such was bold,
And such was fortunate, yet each of old
Lost, lost! one moment knell’d the woe of years.
There they stood, ranged along the hill-sides, met
To view the last of me, a living frame
For one more picture! in a sheet of flame
I saw them and I knew them all. And yet
Dauntless the slug-horn to my lips I set,
And blew “Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came.”
I do agree with you both on the ending. It was very haphazard and not a worthy ending for what I consider a marvelous collection
Jake
I thought you were referring to the Tower putting itself back in danger by sending Roland back.
Of course he saves it before that happens! That happened when they stopped the breakers! He wouldn't be sent back otherwise as there would be nothing to do the sending. It came pretty close, but it was strongly stated that once the breakers stopped attacking the Beam the beams would regenerate themselves over time. They still have a long way to go, but Roland saw an improvement on the way to the Tower. I don't think the magic ever left the world completely. The rising of industrialism and materialism certainly had a damaging affect, but the ka-tet, the few standing true did a lot to sway the difference in my mind.
As for Mia, while she says a lot of interesting things concerning the nature of the multi-verse she doesn't know everything and had a tendency towards pessimism.
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