Star Wars Discussion

[DanHocker]

And it's not like I hated the second one. I think one of my issues was that the casino part was just a bit too long. But otherwise I did enjoy it. I probably need to see it again so I can fresh look at it. I haven't seen it in a while.

Generally the sentiment I've seen online is that it gets a lot of hate for a handful of things, Fin / Rose, Snoke, the hyperspace attack thing, Rey being "too good", and just generally the way Luke is portrayed. I agree with you about the casino stuff being too long, and I kinda generally agree with the complaints people have about Snoke being wasted. I would maybe understand the complaints about Rey being too good if that wasn't the case for Luke in the original trilogy as well. Just my 2 cents though. I do need to see the movie again though, I don't think I've seen it since the theaters.

[MikeDuke]

Even Mark H did not like the way Luke was portrayed. And Snoke should have had a bigger part. I didn't have a problem with Rey being "too good" I mean there were parts where Luke was also really good as well. Anyway,
I am looking forward to this last one.

[Iwritecode]

I think the biggest complaints were that it seemed like Rian didn't really follow what JJ set up in the first movie. Killing Snoke off, hand-waving away Rey's parentage, turning Luke into a bitter old hermit that wouldn't/couldn't leave his little island. Now it feels like they are bringing JJ back to clean up the mess that was made and fix everything again.

[MikeDuke]

I think the biggest complaints were that it seemed like Rian didn't really follow what JJ set up in the first movie. Killing Snoke off, hand-waving away Rey's parentage, turning Luke into a bitter old hermit that wouldn't/couldn't leave his little island. Now it feels like they are bringing JJ back to clean up the mess that was made and fix everything again.

I can agree with that

[DanHocker]

I think the biggest complaints were that it seemed like Rian didn't really follow what JJ set up in the first movie. Killing Snoke off, hand-waving away Rey's parentage, turning Luke into a bitter old hermit that wouldn't/couldn't leave his little island. Now it feels like they are bringing JJ back to clean up the mess that was made and fix everything again.

As I understand it, that was more of a function of the way they where making those movies than Rian specifically. Essentially they weren't even done filming TFA when they had to lock the script for TLJ and they just had no idea audiences were going to latch onto certain characters the way they did. Essentially there was no plan or story really laid out for the trilogy. JJ and Rian supposedly barely even talked about it even though I had thought JJ was supposed to be "Kevin Feige'ing" this trilogy. JJ was brought back because Disney lost faith in Colin Trevorrow, which honestly I think is a good thing. I'm not really a fan of his Jurrasic World movies. Disney / Lucas film really seem to have stumbled into this new trilogy. That said I've liked every movie they've put out to some degree or another (even Solo).

[Hunchback Jack]

I've heard conflicting accounts - that Rian was given no guidance at all about ep8, and was left to write it himself; that JJ had written a treatment for the whole trilogy that Rian ignored; that JJ had written a full script that Rian incorporated parts of into his own script, and a lot of the plot elements people had the most problem with actually came from JJ. At this point, we may never know the truth unless a JJ script for Ep8 shows up somewhere.

I do agree that JJ seems to have come back to "fix" the series after TLJ derailed it.

In general, I've like all four of the "new" movies to some degree. I didn't think any of them were "bad". But some were definitely better than others.

In order of my personal enjoyment:
- The Force Awakens
- Solo
- The Last Jedi
- Rogue One

On a different day, I might swap the last two; I like and dislike them for completely different reasons, so it's hard to compare. Also, while I didn't enjoy Rogue One as much as the others, I do appreciate that they tried to do something different with the franchise. As I say, I don't really think any of these movies are bad.

HBJ

[Joe315]

I think the biggest complaints were that it seemed like Rian didn't really follow what JJ set up in the first movie. Killing Snoke off, hand-waving away Rey's parentage, turning Luke into a bitter old hermit that wouldn't/couldn't leave his little island. Now it feels like they are bringing JJ back to clean up the mess that was made and fix everything again.

I don't think he waved off her parentage. I think the cave, like in empire, showed her biggest fear and that is she is no one and has no one; that her parents never cared for her.

Agree with the Snoke criticism. He was set up as this hugely powerful being but turned out to be really nothing.

Luke was obviously meant to be like Obi Won but he screwed that up for sure, at least personality wise. I never would have envisioned Luke giving up like that.

[Hunchback Jack]

The Luke thing was interesting, I thought - it just wasn't executed well.

I found the idea of Luke losing faith in the Jedi intriguing. Being reluctant to train a padawan after having failed with Ben Solo so spectacularly - and after seeing how the Dark side turned Luke's father and tempted Luke himself - makes total sense to me. Having him fear the control that Rey has over the Force, and fear her willingness to turn to the Dark side for answers, is interesting, too. It sets up a story arc different from the Obi-Wan/Yoda/Luke arc in Empire. And it dovetails into Kylo Ren trying to convince Rey to abandon the patterns of the past and find new ways forward. The Luke/Rey/Kylo plot thread was by far the strongest in the movie, I thought.

The real problem was what they did with it. The tossing of the lightsaber over the shoulder was cringe-inducing. The tone was all over the place. Having Luke train her without believing in her purpose made no sense. Having Kylo and Rey defeat Snoke, but then have Kylo continue to want to fulfill Snoke's goals was a wasted opportunity. It's like Rian wanted some of the set pieces of a traditional master/student plot, but also wanted to deconstruct the Star Wars mythos at the same time. It didnt work very well.

HBJ

[mae]

Speaking of The Last Jedi (it's my second favorite of the new SW movies after Rogue One):

[Hunchback Jack]

Meh, whatever.

Sorry, I don't accept that "defying expectations", or "challenging male hero archetypes", makes up for the lack of a coherent story and the inconsistent tone. I *understand* what Rian Johnson was doing - and how he was deconstructing the traditional Star Wars movie - I just don't think it worked very well. Just because it was "smart" doesn't mean it was "good".

Context is important, too. If Rian had written his own SF movie with these themes, I would have been far more accepting of them. But challenging the traditional themes of an action adventure series FROM WITHIN THAT SELF-SAME SERIES is equivalent to Samson bringing the temple roof down on his own head.

Heroes can be flawed; heroes can fail. But to say that heroism itself is a flaw? That people should do what they are told, be a cog in the machine, and not rely on their creativity and innovation and courage to get out of what they perceive as being a hopeless situation?

Maybe a Star Wars film is not the right time and place for that, if you want it to work as a Star Wars film.

HBJ

[Kongo]

In a few years time, I feel The Last Jedi will be regarded as one of the best Star Wars movies. I love the fact the film gave a giant middle finger to all of our expectations. Killing Snoke was genius in my opinion. Nobody knew next to anything about him, and he was set up to be another Palpatine. I did not need a carbon copy of the main villain from the previous two trilogies. Plus even though they're technically not "Sith", it's been well established in the past two trilogies that the padawan inevitably kills the master. So the fact that they sped it up, and didn't choose to drag it out I applaud them for. Kylo Ren is a more interesting antagonist anyways

[MikeDuke]

Rogue One is one of favorite the new ones as well. I did not like Solo.
And it's easy to accept that Luke lost faith just like Yoda lost faith and went to be alone. Again, There were parts that I liked and part that I did not. I can't put my finger on it, but it was not because they had strong women in the film. Starting with Aliens and... I know there are more, there have been strong female leads and that was fine with me. I just thought that the film was just, I don't know.
But that newer trailer has me really excited to see what they do.

[fernandito]

My only gripe is that we never got to see the full extent of Luke's mastery over the force. TLJ should have done for him what Rogue One did for Vader. Imagine a scene where Luke is Force tossing FO troopers like they were rag dolls.

I'm also ok with Snoke getting dispatched by Kylo, IF the end result is that Kylo goes full mad-dog. Where he just wants to destroy the system and everything in it, not caring about anything. The series has always been about choosing one side or the other, so a force that doesn't care about sides and just wants everyone to incur his wrath is much more interesting to me.

[Mattrick]

Defying expectations isn't inherently a good thing. It's only a good thing if it makes sense, isn't done for shock value, and is done for a reason. I'm sick of "defying expectations" being heralded as genius these days. It's not genius if the product sucks still.

[Mattrick]

This is way cooler than the trailer (Which I call Memberberries: The Movie)

[Brian861]

Let's face it. There are only 3 good SW films. A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back (The Best Film), and Rogue One. The Return of the Jedi was on track until we landed on the Teddy Bear planet. And Solo was fun.

[Mattrick]

Correction, 2. Rogue One wasn't good. I put it below Jedi, but above TFA.

[Hunchback Jack]

I think Rogue One was technically a better movie, but I enjoyed watching TFA more.

[Mattrick]

Rogue One had a lot of nice photography. That's all I can say before that's positive. K2SO or whatever the droids name was mildly amusing, but only served to remind me how shit every other character is.

[DanHocker]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I enjoy all of the Star Wars movies, even the prequels, but I thought I might rank them.

Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Rouge One
Return of the Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
Solo
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace

I actually really like Solo, it just kinda falls flat for me in the casting of the Han himself. They didn't even try to get someone who looked like Harrison Ford. It just kinda puts the whole thing in a weird place for me. Generally the rest of the cast is pretty great though.

Back to the The Last Jedi though. Generally I like what they did with Luke. Everyone wanted Luke to be like Obi Wan, but really he was much more like Yoda. The reluctant teacher who was kinda jaded with the way things turned out. And for Luke being like Vader at the end of Rouge One, in a way I think he was. The whole insane force projection thing had to take a ton of power to pull off.

[webstar1000]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I enjoy all of the Star Wars movies, even the prequels, but I thought I might rank them.

Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Rouge One
Return of the Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
Solo
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace

I actually really like Solo, it just kinda falls flat for me in the casting of the Han himself. They didn't even try to get someone who looked like Harrison Ford. It just kinda puts the whole thing in a weird place for me. Generally the rest of the cast is pretty great though.

Back to the The Last Jedi though. Generally I like what they did with Luke. Everyone wanted Luke to be like Obi Wan, but really he was much more like Yoda. The reluctant teacher who was kinda jaded with the way things turned out. And for Luke being like Vader at the end of Rouge One, in a way I think he was. The whole insane force projection thing had to take a ton of power to pull off.

Great list and the only change I would have is to change Return and Rogue places....

PS: I DO NOT get the hate for the Ewoks. I loved it!!!

[MikeDuke]

I probably wouldn't change too much in that list. And I think Luke may have been the only one to the projection he did in TLJ. Someone told me that's the only time that was done by a Jedi.
I liked Rouge One. The prequlels were weaker for sure (at least for me). The more people are talking about it and the more I think about it, I think I was too hard on TLJ. You make some
good points Dan. Everybody wanted Luke, including me, to be an open teacher and just welcome Rey. But when he did not, and when we learned why, you kind of understand him more.
Especially when Luke and Rey are training and Luke said "You went straight to the dark..." and how he was not smart enough to recognize that power with Ben, but he is now. Luke seemed
like a broken man. Turned off from the force. But that is not entirely true. He still got upset, initially when Yoda burned down the tree with all the "sacred text." Anyway, upon reflection
I am moving up TLJ on my list. I also really liked TFA. Even though had a lot in common with A New Hope.

[DanHocker]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I enjoy all of the Star Wars movies, even the prequels, but I thought I might rank them.

Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Rouge One
Return of the Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
Solo
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace

I actually really like Solo, it just kinda falls flat for me in the casting of the Han himself. They didn't even try to get someone who looked like Harrison Ford. It just kinda puts the whole thing in a weird place for me. Generally the rest of the cast is pretty great though.

Back to the The Last Jedi though. Generally I like what they did with Luke. Everyone wanted Luke to be like Obi Wan, but really he was much more like Yoda. The reluctant teacher who was kinda jaded with the way things turned out. And for Luke being like Vader at the end of Rouge One, in a way I think he was. The whole insane force projection thing had to take a ton of power to pull off.

Great list and the only change I would have is to change Return and Rogue places....

PS: I DO NOT get the hate for the Ewoks. I loved it!!!

No Ewok hate from me. I just really really like Rouge One.

[Iwritecode]

I've never gotten the Ewok hate either. I was born in 77 so I was around 6 or 7 when the Ewok toys started coming out and at the perfect age to enjoy all of it.

I clearly remember the day my parents took me to Circus World at the mall (anyone else remember that place?) and I came out with the big Ewok village playset. There was also another playset that was based on the Saturday morning Ewok cartoon.

[webstar1000]

I just bought my trip to Orlando for 3rd week of January to spend 3 days at Star Wars Galaxy Edge... CANNOT WAIT.