Star Wars Discussion

[obscurejude]

That scene in Episode III where Obi Wan and Anakin/Vader launch each other across the room using opposite sides of the Force is awesome as hell.

I agree, but after that, I thought it was really boring and there was far too much CGI with Mustafar. I could tell they were just jumping around on a green screen.

I agree completely that there was too much CGI dude. The duel was GREAT until they went outside. It just kinda went downhill after that, it was still good but the Vader/Luke duel was better at that point.

Yeah, I know. Luke and Vader just got better and better and better. I was actually on a date Saturday night at a Gilato place and they had Empire on a TV in the corner. When the duel came on, I got kind of distracted and had to pause our conversation.

[The Cosmic Geek]

That scene in Episode III where Obi Wan and Anakin/Vader launch each other across the room using opposite sides of the Force is awesome as hell.

I agree, but after that, I thought it was really boring and there was far too much CGI with Mustafar. I could tell they were just jumping around on a green screen.

I agree completely that there was too much CGI dude. The duel was GREAT until they went outside. It just kinda went downhill after that, it was still good but the Vader/Luke duel was better at that point.

Yeah, I know. Luke and Vader just got better and better and better. I was actually on a date Saturday night at a Gilato place and they had Empire on a TV in the corner. When the duel came on, I got kind of distracted and had to pause our conversation.

hehe Dude, that is awesome. I'd have done the same thing.

[obscurejude]

[Mordred Deschain]

As far as the light saber duels go, I haven't decided if I like any from episodes 1-3. Any of the duels from episodes 4-6 were like how swordsman would have dueled in Europe during the medieval time period (before and after). Episodes 1-3 duels are like some one from Japan or China became a Jedi and taught everyone martial arts.

The fight between Vader and Luke was very much like the duels of Japan. The training Hamill went through was Japanese fencing if I remember right. I can tell by the stances in ROTJ that he studied a Japanese style for that fight.

.

I'll give you that, but episodes 1-3 were like watching a Jet Li movie. And I did say someone from Japan or China. So I was partly mistaken. and yes it was more like the code of Bushido. The rest everyone is jumpen around like ninjas or kung fu masters.

[Sam]

I'll give you that Mordred. The prequels did look a lot like Couching Jedi, Hidden Sith. Or maybe House of Flying Lightsabers.

[Mordred Deschain]

I'll give you that Mordred. The prequels did look a lot like Couching Jedi, Hidden Sith. Or maybe House of Flying Lightsabers.

exactly, and not to say it was bad, I like sword fights of all kinds, just seemed to be a big difference between the eps 1-3 and 4-6. And the only thing I can think of is that obiwan was to old to do the jumping around thing (Sir Alec Guinness) or since Luke was never really really trained as a Jedi, he was never trained in kung fu. Just Bushido.

[The Cosmic Geek]

I'll give you that Mordred. The prequels did look a lot like Couching Jedi, Hidden Sith. Or maybe House of Flying Lightsabers.

That's great.

There is a huge difference in fighting styles in the trilogies. The biggest of course being Obi Wan and Vader in part 4. Now, Lucas has said that they don't move as good in A New Hope because Vader is more machine now than man and Obi Wan is old, but that doesn't make sense. Cause Yoda was hundreds of years older than Obi wan and he leapt around like a mother in 2 and 3, also, Greivous was all droid pretty much and he moved around like a frickin lizard.

Another theory which I can buy more was that Luke wasn't trained in the old ways so he didn't know how to fight. Obi Wan taught him defensive movements from the remote, so he had no idea how to spar.

[obscurejude]

I think some of Luke's training is a mystery. He did build his own light saber as well as commune with Obi Wan between the events of Empire and Jedi. Who knows what really happened?

[Sam]

One thing I heard Lucas say was that he wanted to show us what the Jedi were really capable of. In ANH you just got to see two beyond their prime, one an old man and the other a mechanical man who couldn't move like flesh and bone. In ESB and ROTJ you saw the mechanical man verses a barely trained Jedi and never got the feel of what Jedi were really about when it came to lightsabers. Apparently they were about a lot of CGI and wires. The most realistic fights were those from TPM and the interior fight scene between Obi Wan and Vader in ROTS. Not as much CGI in them as the rest of the fight scenes, or so I thought.

[cozener]

I saw originals on the screen when I was a kid and people literally stood up and cheered.

You and I are the same age and I remember that too. I also recall that people were still cheering at the end of Return of the Jedi when Luke jumped up and started laying into Vader when he said he was going to turn his sister to the Dark Side. Then they cheered for Vader when he launched the emperor down that shaft. (amazing how quick that reversal was)

But then, people did that back then...cheered in theaters. They just don't do that any more. Its very sad. Going to the movies used to be more of an experience, in part, because the audience was more emotionally involved...or maybe we were just less guarded...less self concious.

Or maybe I'm just bitching about how they "don't make 'em like they used too".

[Chap]

I agree about too much CGI (and no good direction, bad actors, strange stories, useless characters etc) in 1-3.
Unfortunately this has caused a lot of people not to like star wars, people who weren't around when the original trilogy came out, and who weren't kids when the new one was made. The "tweeners", if you will.

Best things about the new trilogy would be:
a. Darth Maul (both his duels were very memorable, who doesn't remember when the second part of the lightsaber was activated and the chorus sang in the background?)
b. The promo picture showing little anakin casting Vaders shadow
c. More Fett
d. Roger Roger (droid army)
e. the clone army world and its inhabitors (names escape me)


bad things:
a. too much CGI (affecting virtually every single scene)
b. no character in the CGI characters
c. incredibly bad performance by almost all actors, which is probably a result of d:
d. awfull directing (Guess there's a reason Lucas only directed one of the original movies)
e. too many jedis (no more mystery)
f. too many jedis with bland CGI looks and no character (see above)
g. embarrasing scenes (anything amidala/anakin)
h. JarJar
i. "NOOOOOOOO!" (I mean, when it's the end of a star wars trilogy, and your only natural reaction is to facepalm - something is wrong)
j. Hayden Christensen

I'm sure there's more, but this is only what came to mind right now

[Mordred Deschain]

I think some of Luke's training is a mystery. He did build his own light saber as well as commune with Obi Wan between the events of Empire and Jedi. Who knows what really happened?

True. However, if you take the entire storyline into account, Yoda made a comment that Anakin was to old to be trained, now you are talking Luke who is what 15 or 16 something like that in A New Hope. And that he didn't have the years upon years of training. But, I will say, it is true that he built his own lightsaber. BUt, from what I understand, wasn't that scene in empire when he cut off Vader's head and it was his suppose to be his Jedi trial and he failed? And I would think that the end of Jedi when he doesn't give into the Darkside and turns his father back..was his true trial. That's just my thought. But like you said it's a mystery and never really was explained.

One thing I heard Lucas say was that he wanted to show us what the Jedi were really capable of. In ANH you just got to see two beyond their prime, one an old man and the other a mechanical man who couldn't move like flesh and bone. In ESB and ROTJ you saw the mechanical man verses a barely trained Jedi and never got the feel of what Jedi were really about when it came to lightsabers. Apparently they were about a lot of CGI and wires. The most realistic fights were those from TPM and the interior fight scene between Obi Wan and Vader in ROTS. Not as much CGI in them as the rest of the fight scenes, or so I thought.

But I never saw the Jedi that way. Even with how Luke fought Vader at the end, the actual Lightsaber duel had more balance like a two Samurai fighting (btw, thanks for the reminder on how they trained Mark). I always pictured the Jedi to be more feared because of their power than to be like shaolin monks. Kind of like gunslingers. Obi-wan warned the guy in the Cantina to back off, and when he didn't, Obi cut the guys arm off without hesitation. Again, I see the Jedi as Samurai not as ninja. And that includes the Sith.

This is actually kind of funny, you should see me play Star Wars: Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels for the Wii. it's fricken hilarious and there is no grace what so ever...

[Sam]

I'm kinda with you. I equated the Jedi with Samurai in nearly every way. I equated the Sith with the Ninja because I saw them as being just as secretive and honorless as the ninja were reputed to be. The ninja would do whatever it took to get the job done and was for hire by whoever paid his price regardless of the job. The Sith's ideas were different but they were secretive and used trickery same as the ninja. I've changed my outlook some, but I still equate Jedi with Samurai no matter what Lucas has done.

[MonteGss]

[soapbox]

I'll never understand the argument or complaint about the CGI in the prequel trilogy. Never.

The special effects in the original trilogy were fucking horrible. Muppets? Really? That looked "real" to people?

For me, the special effects in both trilogies were AWESOME but there is no way I can say one is more "real" than the other.
Thankfully, I can enjoy a movie and not get nitpicky on what is "fake" and "real."

[/soapbox]

[Sam]

First, find a movie from 1983 or earlier that has special effects to compete with the original Star Wars trilogy. Find any movie that has special effects to rival Star Wars and see who did the effects. Follow the trail man, and you'll learn that all trails lead to Star Wars. It is the genesis of many modernday techniques.

Second, how old are you? This is a serious question not a sarcastic one. Age has a lot to do with viewpoint. If Star Wars has always been around, it's nothing new to you. It's not technology. Many my age saw the effects from movies like Jason and the Argonauts as hokey when they really were top notch. That's the nature of special effects, they don't hold up to technological advances. HOWEVER...

CGI intrinsically LOOKS different from traditional special effects and without some restraint, the film is going to showcase that difference. Let me ask you this, which scenes in ROTS have CGI? Now look at ANH, which scenes have special effects in them? Tell me which scenes look more realistic. You can even separate them by comparing space scenes to space scenes and planet scenes to planet scenes. If you still can't say which looks more "real", let me ask which one looks less "animated".

I can enjoy any movie as long as the story is good, but here we are discussing the films. This includes discussion about there flaws as well.

[obscurejude]

[soapbox]

I'll never understand the argument or complaint about the CGI in the prequel trilogy. Never.

The special effects in the original trilogy were fucking horrible. Muppets? Really? That looked "real" to people?

For me, the special effects in both trilogies were AWESOME but there is no way I can say one is more "real" than the other.
Thankfully, I can enjoy a movie and not get nitpicky on what is "fake" and "real."

[/soapbox]

My main argument has to do with the caliber of performances in real sets and the ones in front of a green screen. "real" doesn't necessarily mean better. Its the human element that is lacking in the prequels and that's the irony. It looks faker than ever before, because of cookie cutter performances.

[Chap]

[soapbox]

I'll never understand the argument or complaint about the CGI in the prequel trilogy. Never.

The special effects in the original trilogy were fucking horrible. Muppets? Really? That looked "real" to people?

For me, the special effects in both trilogies were AWESOME but there is no way I can say one is more "real" than the other.
Thankfully, I can enjoy a movie and not get nitpicky on what is "fake" and "real."

[/soapbox]

My main argument has to do with the caliber of performances in real sets and the ones in front of a green screen. "real" doesn't necessarily mean better. Its the human element that is lacking in the prequels and that's the irony. It looks faker than ever before, because of cookie cutter performances.

Yep. That's why most actors sucked in 1-3.
and like I said earlier: there is not character in the CGI characters and settings. It looks fake and computer made, because it IS fake and computer made. Just compare the battle at Hoth (V) with almost any CGI scene in 1-3.

perfect example of something that looks extremely fake (comparable to old James Bond car chase scenes):

(hi! I'm a guy with make-up on running in front of a green screen, doesn't it look cool?)
No.

[obscurejude]

Well put Chap. Maybe we can turn Monte.

[MonteGss]

Nope. I've left this silly discussion.
jude, as always, your ideas intrigue me but we'll leave our discussions to other topics.

[obscurejude]

[Odetta]

Does anyone care to recall the absolutely ridiculous scene where Anakin sends a piece of fruit to Amidala and she takes a bite of the fake fruit???? seriously pathetic CGI.
It would have been much better to get out the fishing line for that one, let me tell you!

And I don't think the characters in epis 4-6 that were puppets looked real. But they moved with their surroundings instead of looking pasted in as the CGI characters do.

[flaggwalkstheline]

I think the cgi looks clean and shiny, eveyrthing looks new, everything looks like crap in the later/ original films because the galaxy went to hell over 20 years, that is how I think of the contrast, and I dont think the cgi looks fake in most places

[obscurejude]

Not everything Flagg. Bespin looked fantastic, as well as the Death Stars.

But I get your point about the 20 year decline of the galaxy.

[Mordred Deschain]

First, find a movie from 1983 or earlier that has special effects to compete with the original Star Wars trilogy. Find any movie that has special effects to rival Star Wars and see who did the effects. Follow the trail man, and you'll learn that all trails lead to Star Wars. It is the genesis of many modernday techniques.

Second, how old are you? This is a serious question not a sarcastic one. Age has a lot to do with viewpoint. If Star Wars has always been around, it's nothing new to you. It's not technology. Many my age saw the effects from movies like Jason and the Argonauts as hokey when they really were top notch. That's the nature of special effects, they don't hold up to technological advances. HOWEVER...

CGI intrinsically LOOKS different from traditional special effects and without some restraint, the film is going to showcase that difference. Let me ask you this, which scenes in ROTS have CGI? Now look at ANH, which scenes have special effects in them? Tell me which scenes look more realistic. You can even separate them by comparing space scenes to space scenes and planet scenes to planet scenes. If you still can't say which looks more "real", let me ask which one looks less "animated".

I can enjoy any movie as long as the story is good, but here we are discussing the films. This includes discussion about there flaws as well.

yes yes yes and yes.

on the first part, I do really dislike that some people seem to think the technology we have today was usable back in the 80's. Even the early 90's special effects weren't all that great. And like you said a lot of special effects go back to Star Wars, and the ideas they had for special effects were hailed by the entire movie industry to be amazing.

I have no problem with CGI, however, it costs a lot for it's use in movies. And you can tell when the money for a movie gets put into the special effects and not the script or casting. And I assume, that's what Lucas wanted. He wanted our eyes bulging out of their sockets because of the amazing special effects in eps. 1-3. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. The only really cool CGI part was in A New Hope when he added the Jabba scene. It's was kind of choppy when Han walked around him since Jabba originally was more of a human character. But I think it was an awesome addition to the movie. The rest of the added scenes.....how in the hell did Greedo shot first and his aim was sooooooooo off.

-just another 2 cents

[Sam]

Greedo's shooting first was the dumbest idea I have ever seen on film. I would have rather not had the Jabba scene at all than had that stupid fucking addition.