... and I think we can include the can-toi in this too.
Ok, we started discussing this on the Finli and Pimli thread. So we can leave that thread specific to those two characters, I though we could use this thread to discuss the taheen and can-toi as a whole.
I'm particularly curious as to their origin but it's fine if we discuss other stuff about them too.
So, they're described as being "Not of the world or the prim but something in between" (I'll look for the proper quote later.) So what does that actually mean?
It could mean that they are a mixture of demon (prim) and human (world), but I'm not so sure. The prim combination could simply refer to how they are made. Bearing in mind that the 'receding of the prim' is synonymous in the books (particularly The Song of Susannah) with the departure of magic I think it might simply mean that magic was utilized in their creation.
For this reason I actually chose "They were genetically engineered by the great old ones" and "They were created by the prim folk directly or indirectly."
In short I think it may have been a combination of both, the prim folk magic and knowledge combined with the great old ones science and technology resulting in the creation of taheen from human and animal stock. I don't think it's likely that they were created just by the Great Old Ones with science considering the prim was likely involved somehow. I think that's what 'in between' might mean.
Here follows something I gleaned from the comics, which might explain much:
Spoiler:
According to the comics, Maerlyn was the demon responsible for increasing the GOO's knowledge of science and magic and their combination of such in the Dogans. He was partly responsible for a lot of the devastating weapons that were created.
Although it wasn't stated, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a role in the creation of the taheen as well. If they can create demon human hybrids, and combine sperm etc. and end up with a creature like Mordred, making human/animal hybrids would be simple in comparison.
Oh, and this Maerlyn is not Walter. He is a demon in human form. From the prim itself.
We also know the taheen serve the Crimson King. Could it be they were created for that very reason? To serve the people of the prim, the Red King being their heir in that world?
Thanks Letti. Since I went off on a bit of stream of consciousness in my first post, I'll edit it to make the options more clear. I'm happy for this thread to be a general discussion on the Taheen and can-toi however so it needn't be restricted to just the options of the poll.
Oh, and feel free to add clarify, or add any other options you can think of Letti. Working out the options was quite difficult in some cases as I realize the origins could be a combination of a number of things.
Thanks Letti. I've edited my first post again as it looks like I'm echoing.
I think it was a good idea you allowed multiple choices. I was considering asking that... I decided not, but I'm glad you did.
It might be advisable to remove the "Combination of both" option, since they can explicitly do it by multiple choices. Or not, whatever you think looks best.
I think it's a combination but I was mostly attracted to the first option of them being created by the Great Old People. I also believe tho that they might be descended from prim and people sort of like CK... they have many demonic qualities i think like being evil... but i'm not sure because that is also known to be a hume trait sometimes.. because they're part animal genetic modification could be part of it.. i just don't see mutations being so cleanly manifested.
Good thread indeed, the books tell us very little (nothing) about their origin.
I voted "...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.
Good thread indeed, the books tell us very little (nothing) about their origin.
I voted "...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.
Good thread indeed, the books tell us very little (nothing) about their origin.
I voted "...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.
And what could be the reason?
Pure human fuckery Letti.
We will get around to it eventually on this plane for real. We're already playing around with human/pig genetics to try to grow replacement organs. If a 'pig' only has a slightly-more-human-liver then you can kill the 'pig' and put the liver in a 'human'. But where will we draw the line? (We're not good at drawing lines).
i just don't see mutations being so cleanly manifested.
Yes, good point about mutants. Of course genetically engineered beings are mutants of a kind (I think) but not the kind I placed in the poll. Besides, ordinary mutants wouldn't fit the profile of being between the prim and the world, since, like humans, they are entirely of the world. (Unless you count the demon inspired weapons that caused them, but that's a massive stretch.)
The pleasure was mine, believe me. It's a hard but damn good poll. Keep thinking about it.
Right now I am with the other universe theory.
I wondered about that too. If they are just from another world, I'm not sure where the prim influence might be though (that's assuming 'between the prim and the world' means that, it might not.) since they are of a world, if not that world.
However, I started wondering about those 'tower balcony' worlds. You know those ones that are off of the main tower, and filled with all the things of human imagination. I.e. more fantastical. Sure the entire cycle, and the multiverse created are fantastical, but I mean a step further, akin to fairy tales. The taheen seem to fit that mold don't they? And I'd imagine the prim to be the source . (Of course everything comes from the prim originally. Even, all the worlds and the Tower itself.)
I didn't pick that as my choice of their origin, but I thought it a considerable option.
"...genetically engineered by the Great Old Ones ....". It would not surprise me at all if that were the answer - some crossover genetics between Human and other animals.
i am leaning this way as well. it would explain why so many [if not all] of them are in league with the Crimson King.
I picked descended from humans and prim demons, because they had a lot of very human characteristics, and the unlikely way that their animal characteristics manifested seems too not-random to be the stuff of genetics. BUT I think this only applies to the Taheen.
I think the can-toi are different entirely, and probably WERE caused by the great old one's genetic manipulation and stuff, but i forgot to vote that. lemur is dumb.
"I just know that something good is going to happen."
~Utah Saints
I picked descended from humans and prim demons, because they had a lot of very human characteristics, and the unlikely way that their animal characteristics manifested seems too not-random to be the stuff of genetics. BUT I think this only applies to the Taheen.
I think the can-toi are different entirely, and probably WERE caused by the great old one's genetic manipulation and stuff, but i forgot to vote that. lemur is dumb.
That's ok, the poll only concerns the taheen anyway. However you're welcome to include your ideas concerning the can-toi in this thread as well. I intended this thread to be a general thread about the taheen and can-toi, including a poll rather than just being about the poll, if that makes sense.
It would be difficult for a true human/animal hybrid to be created with specific animal head on a human shaped body it's true. Most likely they would be a mixture of human and animal characteristics all over, i.e. head, body etc somewhere between the two.
However I think we can assume their level of knowledge of the GOO would be particularly advanced, at least a 1000 years beyond our own. Couple that with the use of magic- who know what that could be capable of.
If the taheen are in fact chimeras (and I'm not convinced that's the case, but it's an idea) their appearance would be understandable since chimeras contain different DNA in different parts of their bodies, rather than the same DNA in each individual cell. (If I understand correctly.)
Naturally occurring human chimeras actually do exist. It's like having two non identical twins fused in one body. It's still only one person though, one brain, the right amount of organs, limbs etc but you might get different skin tones changing abruptly on the body. If you're a chimera you might give birth to a child who biologically appear to not be your own, because the reproduction cells (sperm, ovum) contain different DNA to much of the rest of your body. Freaky eh?
As for the can-toi, we know they are taheen/human hybrids. I wondered how that happened too. I.e. is it the result of mating between humes and taheen, or, is it, as you say, genetic engineering?
I thought it interesting that the can-toi have a whole culture all of their own. I.e. seeing the human form as divine, and aspiring to it whilst the normal taheen despise humans. Which makes the bond between Pimli and Finli all the more interesting.
I've actually wondered about the can-toi for a while now. They seem to be the King's favored servants,
Spoiler:
since they'd take mankind's place if the Tower fell.
. At first I thought that perhaps the can-toi came about from the mating of a human with a taheen, like Sauruman's uruk-hai. However, the fact that they're ratheaded seems to debunk this idea. Instead, I think its possible that some strange sect that lived in All-World might've chosen some of their own to actually mate with the Great Ones of todash, with the can-toi being the result of said union. So human-prim being hybrids basically.
As for the taheen, I'm genuinley unsure. From The Long Road Home # 3
Spoiler:
, recall that the Guardians (in the form that they appeared) had been likened to the taheen *mutants*
. I'm thinking that perhaps the taheen were an attempt at the Old Ones to sort of...redeem themselves in the eyes of the Tower that preceeded the creation of the new Guardians like the robotic Shardik. Animal-human hybrids created in the mold of the original Guardians. Though this could also be debunked by the fact that there are taheen such as
Spoiler:
the rooster-headed one in the Devar
, and there is not a rooster among the Guardians. I do think that their nature ties back in to the Guardians though. Something about the primitive or primeval nature of the Prim, hinted at through the Beam Guardians taking the form of animals.
There's an interesting passage in The Tommyknockers *spoilers coming up* that has given me another idea concerning the origins of the taheen.
One of the characters, Gard, is at a faculty party and is watching his fellow partygoers with a rather critical eye. One man is stuffing his face with abandon from the buffet, and Gard starts to see him with a pig's head - of others he sees:
The shaggy head of a wolf poked out of the collar of his white shirt with the narrow red pinstripes. It looked around, pink tongue lolling, greenish-yellow eyes sparkling. Arberg squealed some sort of approval and stuffed more odd lots into his pink pig's snout. Patricia McCardle now had the smooth sleak head of a whippet. the college dean and his wife were weasels. And the wife of the man from the electric company had become a frightened rabbit, pink eyes rolling behind thick glasses.
Obviously the animal heads in this passage represent the baser natures of the people described - and I wonder if the Taheen aren't some breed, a sort of psychological mutation of the subconcious thats been manifested in physical form, whereby your most basic nature determines your animal (head) appearance.
Whether engineered or natural occuring on some other level of the Tower, I'm still not sure.
Obviously the animal heads in this passage represent the baser natures of the people described - and I wonder if the Taheen aren't some breed, a sort of psychological mutation of the subconcious thats been manifested in physical form, whereby your most basic nature determines your animal (head) appearance.
Whether engineered or natural occuring on some other level of the Tower, I'm still not sure.
I like that. It also fits in very well with the balcony worlds idea I mentioned earlier. I.e. if there is a world with a gingerbread house, which Sheemie can access, and a world with a glass palace Flagg can access (I'm of the view that was a balcony world too, since they made it clear that it wasn't an illusion, and I don't buy it that Flagg could just magic a palace out of the desert) then it makes sense there would be a world where weird fantasial creatures exist.
With all the imagery of animal headed creatures that exist in our culture, from the dog heads that medieval people spoke of in far lands (I saw a recent programme mentioning this and of course I thought of the taheen) to the imagery of peoples baser nature DarkThoughts mentions from the Tommyknockers, and of course all the werewolf stuff, it makes sense that somewhere there might be a balcony world out there where such critters are real. And I'm sure those 'fantasy' worlds are closer to the prim than the worlds of the main tower.
I don't know, but my guess would be that the Prim demons created them using a mix of Prim demon and human DNA, probably either the same way that Mordred was born by using corrupted semen or with the aid of the Great Old Ones' machines.
Yeah, those Taheen were some of the creepier critters of Dark Tower. But just looking at how they seem to behave in the story, I'd bet that not even they really know what they are.
"I serve only one masta: DAAKNESS" - Peter Boil, Swashbuckler
Also, that's a very interesting quote from "Tommyknockers." What's the context? I mean, I remembered in "The Dark Tower," that it said that the Taheen were psychic, so I wouldn't be surprised if they could mask their appearance mentally or something.
"I serve only one masta: DAAKNESS" - Peter Boil, Swashbuckler
The nature of the Taheen
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Originally Posted by Brainslinger
