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Thread: Rose Madder - Let's Discuss! *SPOILERS*

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    Well, I'm not the one that it happened to, so I am alright, but... it was way too easy for lemurs with hyperactive imaginations to be all... and... blarg.

    Anyway I did go back and read the rest of it except for the bit at the very end, so I was cheered up because of Gert's peepee skills.
    didn't gert just rock?

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    Let's make Rose Madder the featured book of the month, since there's already a thread started, we'll just bring it to the forefront for July!

    I admit, I have not yet read this book...
    Buddy, you think you look strong? You’re wearing a cape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odetta View Post
    I admit, I have not yet read this book...

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    I know, I know... shame!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odetta View Post
    I admit, I have not yet read this book...
    I guess you need a spanking and further rough treatment.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Rose Madder has, in the person of Rose's husband, one of the most despicable villains that King has ever written. The opening chapter is VERY difficult to read without wincing!

    John

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    yes it's generally agreed among many that Norman is the greatest monster Sai King ever created.

    Odetta!!!! You must READ IT!!!!!!!!

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    OK... I'll go get it!
    Buddy, you think you look strong? You’re wearing a cape.

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    I read this one. Norman is quite the deranged character and him being a police officer makes him all the more threatening.

    I can't say I enjoyed the book but it was an interesting read. The beginning reminded me of a couple of girls I know who were given 'home abortions' by their guys. I guess i couldn't get past that and let myself enjoy the story as a story.

    Strong characters in this story though, I must say.

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    i did end up getting another set of the audio cassettes. stephen king is really a little too convincing as norman daniels if you want this constant readers opinion.

    it occurred to me that norman might be the only character or creature that king ever referred to as a monster in his writings other than cujo. can that be correct? i know he called cujo a monster (that's the first line of the book). and rosie (and others) called norman a monster. but i can't recall any other person or thing being referred to specifically as a monster, even IT. can anyone else?

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    I loved Rose Madder too, although I got the impression I was in the minority. Nice to see other people agree with me anyway. I was touched with how sympathetic King was too to the subject matter. I.e. there was a lot of darkness in it, but it wasn't just that for the sake of it, and there was a positive side to it too. It's a shame King himself doesn't like this book much... (at least that's the impression I get. I've read hims stating that he felt he was trying too hard.)

    I'd like to know more about who/what the lady in the painting was (actually do I? The ambiguity is interesting isn't it?) and why such a powerful entity couldn't go into he maze and get the child herself. (Apart from the fact they did each other a solid, to quote a certain giant anteater.)

    It would be great to cross the paths of those two ladies again. (Although it could be a bit scary.) I used to wonder if they'd turn up in the later Tower books,
    Spoiler:
    although that didn't happen.


    I didn't quite understand the ending either, although I get why she would be angry. But not getting it, doesn't mean I dislike those parts, it's just something more to think on that's all.

    Rose Madder was also the book that got me into the Dark Tower books too. Mainly the references to Ludd.

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    I loved Rose Madder too, although I got the impression I was in the minority. Nice to see other people agree with me anyway. I was touched with how sympathetic King was too to the subject matter. It's a shame King himself doesn't like this book much... (at least that's the impression I get. I've read hims stating that he felt he was trying too hard.)

    I'd like to know more about who/what the lady in the painting was (actually do I? The ambiguity is interesting isn't it?) and why such a powerful entity couldn't go into he maze and get the child herself. (Apart from the fact they did each other a solid, to quote a certain giant anteater.)

    It would be great to cross the paths of those two ladies again. (Although it could be a bit scary.) I used to wonder if they'd turn up in the later Tower books,
    Spoiler:
    although that didn't happen.


    I didn't quite understand the ending either, although I get why she would be angry. That doesn't mean I dislike those parts, it's just something more to think on that's all.

    Rose Madder was also the book that got me into the Dark Tower books too. Before then I'd read the backs of a couple of the DT books when browsing book shops, but I wasn't all that fussed about getting them. Then one day I read the back of The Waste Lands, after reading Rose Madder, and I saw the Ludd reference. My curiosity was piqued, so I decided to start at the beginning (where else was I going to start? Doh!) and the rest, as they say, is history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    I didn't quite understand the ending either, although I get why she would be angry. That doesn't mean I dislike those parts, it's just something more to think on that's all.
    It's been shown in a number of studies that the victims of abuse have LOTS of anger within themselves. She was just letting it out in a more or less acceptable way. She didn't go out with a rifle, for example.

    John

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    and it's not just anger. it's guilt and frustration and sadness and loss and helplessness and. . . . plus in rosie's case it's the bleed-over from rose madder. in a very real sense they were twinners i think. god, they were mirror images of each other. king practically slapped us in the face with it.

    oh, and i was wrong about king only calling someone/something a monster twice (cujo and norman daniels) {write it down people, i don't admit it often } richie tozier says there's a moster in derry and it's killing kids when he and bill are in georgie's room with georgie's photo album (the first time).

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    yeah, i was a little lost on the rage issue myself. i honestly didn't see it coming, and although it makes sense, I think it could have been omitted.

    that being said, I found Rose Madder to be deeply disturbing on a few levels. Not just about Norman; that's a given. I thought it was interesting that she was able to find refuge in the painting, from the woman who was actually a monster herself.

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    oooooo irony...

    i Rose Madder

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    in a very real sense they were twinners i think. god, they were mirror images of each other
    I think you're right there. Twinners of a sort anyway. I wondered if the anger was something Rosie caught from Rose Madder too. That's not to say the abuse she suffered isn't a part of it, in fact that'd might be part of this world's manifestation... if that makes sense. The real transformation of Rose Madder being the metaphorical transformation of Rosie Real.

    I'm also very curious about the origins of the Rose Madder and Dorcas. And that whole 'Water of life' reference, which supposedly gave them long life... and their turning into something other. Someone suggested in the IT thread that Rose Madder is likely of the same species as IT and the Crimson King.
    Spoiler:
    I'd add Dandelo to the list. Not that they're exactly the same species but folk of the prim certainly.


    I don't think that's quite true. The book seems clear that Rose Madder (I wonder if that's her actual name?) started off human. I reckon that the folk of the prim are likely behind her transformation though, although it might not be direct. She is becoming. Her spider-like form can't be a coincidence, surely? I think they are of the race of the Great Old Ones (
    Spoiler:
    the people of the Emperium, not the Great Ones of the prim
    ) and maybe they took part in some kind of faustian bargain for immortality, or long life at least. They got what they asked for... and a bit more. A few more legs being an example. As long as those ladies know how to use them. Hyuk, hyuk.

    Apologies if those ideas were already mentioned earlier in the thread.

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    in a very real sense they were twinners i think. god, they were mirror images of each other
    I think you're right there. Twinners of a sort anyway. I wondered if the anger was something Rosie caught from Rose Madder too. That's not to say the abuse she suffered isn't a part of it, in fact that'd might be part of this world's manifestation... if that makes sense. The real transformation of Rose Madder being the metaphorical transformation of Rosie Real.

    I'm also very curious about the origins of the Rose Madder and Dorcas. And that whole 'Water of life' reference, which supposedly gave them long life... and their turning into something other. Someone suggested in the IT thread that Rose Madder is likely of the same species as IT and the Crimson King.
    Spoiler:
    I'd add Dandelo to the list. Not that they're exactly the same species but folk of the prim certainly.


    I don't think that's quite true. The book seems clear that Rose Madder (I wonder if that's her actual name?) started off human. I reckon that the folk of the prim are likely behind her transformation though, although it might not be direct. She is becoming. Her spider-like form can't be a coincidence, surely? I think they are of the race of the Great Old Ones (
    Spoiler:
    the people of the Emperium, not the Great Ones of the prim
    ) and maybe they took part in some kind of faustian bargain for immortality, or long life at least. They got what they asked for... and a bit more. A few more legs being an example. As long as those ladies know how to use them. Hyuk, hyuk.

    Apologies if those ideas were already mentioned earlier in the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    The book seems clear that Rose Madder (I wonder if that's her actual name?) started off human.
    What particluar quote or passage gave you that impression?

    The only ones I could find, by quickly flicking through, that spoke of her life were:

    Dorcas says "I was born in slavery, raised in chains and ransomed to freedom by a woman who's not quite a goddess. Her."

    And also "She don't mean you no harm, but she ain't got good control of herself no more."

    And to me they give the opposite impression - that she has never been human.

    I think the only thing that has changed is her sanity, which in turn lessens the control she has over assuming her spider form. In DT, Mordred experienced moments when his body wanted to assume his spider form and it took some effort of will not too (for he feared it would sap his energy too much). I think Rose Madder has become a slave to her emotions, particularly her anger and thats linked to her other form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    The book seems clear that Rose Madder (I wonder if that's her actual name?) started off human.
    What particluar quote or passage gave you that impression?

    The only ones I could find, by quickly flicking through, that spoke of her life were:

    Dorcas says "I was born in slavery, raised in chains and ransomed to freedom by a woman who's not quite a goddess. Her."

    And also "She don't mean you no harm, but she ain't got good control of herself no more."

    And to me they give the opposite impression - that she has never been human.

    I think the only thing that has changed is her sanity, which in turn lessens the control she has over assuming her spider form. In DT, Mordred experienced moments when his body wanted to assume his spider form and it took some effort of will not too (for he feared it would sap his energy too much). I think Rose Madder has become a slave to her emotions, particularly her anger and thats linked to her other form.
    darkthoughts - wow. i so completely agree with this it's like you were reading my mind. i think that rose madder has not only become a slave to her emotions, she knows it. she warned rosie how many times about her control over herself (dorcas wasn't the only one passing out the warnings!). but she also knows that rosie will become a slave as well if she is not careful - hence the warning to remember the tree.

    perhaps if rose madder had had some vessel to pour her anger into, she would not have gone insane and her emotions would not have been able to devour her. she was warning rosie not to turn into what she was turning into. granted, rosie wouldn't have turned into the exact same thing i don't think. but wouldn't she have turned into something even worse. wouldn't she have turned into norman? she was already showing those tendencies before she planted the seeds that blossomed into the tree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkThoughts
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The book seems clear that Rose Madder (I wonder if that's her actual name?) started off human.
    What particluar quote or passage gave you that impression?
    Ok, maybe not so clear. Mainly I got that impression from something Dorcas said. She mentioned that she had also drunk from the water of life (or something like that) and she also had what the other woman had, it just wasn't as advanced yet. (I.e. Dorcas is still mostly herself, but she's got some pink skin stuff going on.) I deduced that Rose Madder had taken a drink at an earlier time, hence her change.

    That's straight out of my head, so I'll try and find a proper quote for you, and post back here soon.

    I like your thoughts concerning the parallel with Mordred and her emotional state too though.

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    When Dorcas said that thing, about having what Rose Madder has, I didn't think it pertained to the spidey thing - I just read it to mean the disease she had...perhaps that the disease counters the effect of the water of life?

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    i liked rose madder although it made a lot of assumptions about the way wife beaters are but it was good and he got what was coming to him

    i have the viking hardback the edition with the pressed flowers deliberately hid in the page which mentions pressing flowers in "this book" just to freak out the reader

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    i don't think it really made assumptions.. some wife beaters are actually like that. i didn't get the impression that King was saying that they're all like Norman. but since it's horror i'm sure he made Norman especially monstrous.

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

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    unfortunately, some of them are actually worse than norman. of course, they don't turn into bulls and go hunting their wives down in magical and deadly gardens (at least, i don't think they do). but some of them really could make norman daniels look like a pussycat.

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