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Thread: High Speech... what is it?

  1. #51
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by flaggwalkstheline View Post
    true, though sindarin is still pretty exotic when compared to the common westenra english
    True. Just saying that Quenya fits the analogy better.

  2. #52
    Along the Path of the Beam Matt of Gilead is on a distinguished road

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    I hadn't thought about this, but it is interesting to consider. I'll keep it in mind when I get around to my reread.
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    I think the Great Letters are all caps.

    Did you ever notice that every SK mention of High Speech is, "Roland said xyz in the high speech" or "The Taheen said xyz in the high speech"? You never get a sample written out in phonetics.

    I think of the High Speech as sounding like a romance language. Maybe an Italian/French/and yeah Quenya hybrid. What do you all think?

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    In the second book, Roland could read most of the all-caps sign of Balazar's "Tower" bar
    Spoiler:
    "He now saw letters below the tower which had been made of shaped tubes; most of them were Great Letters. TOWER he could read, and yes, LEANING. LEANING TOWER."
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  5. #55
    Traveler Hoot is on a distinguished road

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    Interesting. But if the difference between English letters and 'Great Letters' were simply caps, wouldn't Roland have had an easier time reading [Than he did when he read
    Spoiler:
    'Salem's Lot
    ] ?

    I mean, say I wrote this sentence:

    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow. [This is the allegedly shortest sentence with all the letters in it, don't hold me on it though]

    SPHINX OF THE BLACK QUARTZ, JUDGE MY VOW.

    Would he really have that much of a hard time reading? Perhaps translating h, i, n, a, j, d, m....

    Never mind, I defeated my own point. =S

    I suppose that'd be a plausible theory. I don't see why not.

    Here's an excerpt of him attempting to read [From Wolves of the Calla]:
    'Sir-lock Hones' he read aloud. 'No. Holmes. Like Odetta's fathername. Four... Short... Movels. Movels? No, this one was an N.'
    Through that, we can safely assume that he has difficulty reading: h, l, m, and n. Which would fit the initial hypothesis well, as they're quite different in capital form. [H, L, M, N]

    I dunno, it sounds about right.

  6. #56
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    If that were true though wouldn't he have trouble in his own world reading Hax, Lud, Mejis, Nort, etc...?
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  7. #57
    Traveler Hoot is on a distinguished road

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    Um, presumably, but your point is moot as far as I'd know, 'cuz they wouldn't write their city names in English. [Assumptions, but either way. Great Letters or the other whatever common text that is unique to Mid World. Roland would be able to read it.]

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    that is very close to what I think, too. Not as much Latin to us, but Latin as it was in the time of the latest stage of decline, and soon after the fall, of the Roman Empire.

    A similar, though mirrored, situation can be seen a few centuries later elsewhere. Walter Scott says (Ivanhoe):

    At court, and in the castles of the great nobles, where the pomp and state of a court was emulated, Norman-French was the only language employed; in courts of law, the pleadings and judgments were delivered in the same tongue. In short, French was the language of honour, of chivalry, and even of justice, while the far more manly and expressive Anglo-Saxon was abandoned to the use of rustics and hings, who knew no other.

    So, such words as bed or cow stem from Saxon (German Bett, Kah), while pleasure or beef – a cow eaten – from Norman (French plaisir, boeuf). This state of things, however, can’t last for long:

    … the necessary intercourse between the lords of the soil, and those oppressed inferior beings by whom that soil was cultivated, occasioned the gradual formation of a dialect, compounded betwixt the French and the Anglo-Saxon, in which they could render themselves mutually intelligible to each other; and from this necessity arose by degrees the structure of our present English language, in which the speech of the victors and the vanquished have been so happily blended together…

    Thus, the existence of two languages in a society is usually due to some external reasons, and doesn’t last long. How come there are two languages in the world we’re talking about? Was there a conquest? Who conquered whom? What allowed the two languages to coexist for so long without blending?
    I believe that extra-dimesional travel explains it. Although the High Speech is used in Mid-World, I don't think that it is primarily a language of that world. It appears to be based on the language of beings from other planes of existance. Gunslingers are more concerned with otherworldly matters than the commoners were. Even they probably made practical use of it only rarely, but I still reckon that it was for the sake of those occasions that they maintained it as a professional parlance.

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    I agree with the concept of it being a different dialect as opposed to a completely diferent language, but in a way that it's perhaps as different as Old English is to modern English. In a sense, I guess it takes a certain level of intelligence to comprehend Old English, so therefore, I've kind of assumed that hig Speech is somewhat similar to that...not completely so, but I guess you guys might know what I'm trying to say.
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    I thought the same...without being ill or groggy

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlishaRiley View Post
    I agree with the concept of it being a different dialect as opposed to a completely diferent language, but in a way that it's perhaps as different as Old English is to modern English. In a sense, I guess it takes a certain level of intelligence to comprehend Old English, so therefore, I've kind of assumed that hig Speech is somewhat similar to that...not completely so, but I guess you guys might know what I'm trying to say.
    Forgive me, I'm ill, and groggy.
    i know what you mean sweetie. its like shakespeare, have you tried readin that? its like a whole different language and yet still strangely english. this would explain how everyone knew about high speech, as when you talk to someone about olde english these days they still know what you are talking about. i think its also a dialect thing to. being a northern born lass myself if i tried to speak in the olde worlde english it would sound plain wrong.

    it would also account for looking different when written down, as i seem to remember roland readin high speech somewhere?

  12. #62
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    hope your feeling better too alisha

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    Thank you very much, Candy.
    And that's what i was thinking - about Shakespeare etc. Although if I couldn't understand his work, I'd be pretty much fucked considering I'm studying English lit. But that was kind fo my point - you have to learn it to speak it. Once more, i doubt I'm making sense, but as long as somebody got my first point, I don't mind.
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  14. #64
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    sorry but i think we're all wrong. high speech is what we get when speaking to bricey after he's had a bowl or two.

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    [haven't read the thread, so I apologize if a joke similar to this has been made]

    High speech? sounds like a conversation between Alisha and Brice.

    get it?
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  18. #68
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    that is very close to what I think, too. Not as much Latin to us, but Latin as it was in the time of the latest stage of decline, and soon after the fall, of the Roman Empire.

    A similar, though mirrored, situation can be seen a few centuries later elsewhere. Walter Scott says (Ivanhoe):

    At court, and in the castles of the great nobles, where the pomp and state of a court was emulated, Norman-French was the only language employed; in courts of law, the pleadings and judgments were delivered in the same tongue. In short, French was the language of honour, of chivalry, and even of justice, while the far more manly and expressive Anglo-Saxon was abandoned to the use of rustics and hings, who knew no other.

    So, such words as bed or cow stem from Saxon (German Bett, Kah), while pleasure or beef – a cow eaten – from Norman (French plaisir, boeuf). This state of things, however, can’t last for long:

    … the necessary intercourse between the lords of the soil, and those oppressed inferior beings by whom that soil was cultivated, occasioned the gradual formation of a dialect, compounded betwixt the French and the Anglo-Saxon, in which they could render themselves mutually intelligible to each other; and from this necessity arose by degrees the structure of our present English language, in which the speech of the victors and the vanquished have been so happily blended together…

    Thus, the existence of two languages in a society is usually due to some external reasons, and doesn’t last long. How come there are two languages in the world we’re talking about? Was there a conquest? Who conquered whom? What allowed the two languages to coexist for so long without blending?
    That's interesting Jean and has crossed my mind a couple of times. Greek would be another example along these lines. Koine (common Greek) of the world during Alexander the Great vs. the classical Greek of the golden period of Greece (c.a. Plato and Aristotle).
    Hi my first post

    Anyway,i think that the high speech might be something like Shakespeare's language like we read it today.Very difficult,but we can understand it (or you can,because it's very difficult for me ) But i think it's the same thing as ancient greek is for us (i'm greek),we understand some things but not much.

  20. #70
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    hi spirou

    Greek is an interesting example. Being Russian, I can read easily understand your capital letters - mostly the same as ours - but to read lowercase I got to strain my furry brain a lot (and never be certain anyway, unless it's a word I knew before). If I remember right, Roland could read capitals in modern English easier than lowercase, or is it only something I dreamed?

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    Oh yes,that's right! Russian and greek capital letters is a great example!

    (btw i love evgeni plushenko)

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    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Traveler nearlyprescient is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by candy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlishaRiley View Post
    I agree with the concept of it being a different dialect as opposed to a completely diferent language, but in a way that it's perhaps as different as Old English is to modern English. In a sense, I guess it takes a certain level of intelligence to comprehend Old English, so therefore, I've kind of assumed that hig Speech is somewhat similar to that...not completely so, but I guess you guys might know what I'm trying to say.
    Forgive me, I'm ill, and groggy.
    i know what you mean sweetie. its like shakespeare, have you tried readin that? its like a whole different language and yet still strangely english. this would explain how everyone knew about high speech, as when you talk to someone about olde english these days they still know what you are talking about. i think its also a dialect thing to. being a northern born lass myself if i tried to speak in the olde worlde english it would sound plain wrong.

    it would also account for looking different when written down, as i seem to remember roland readin high speech somewhere?
    Well, if I remember correctly, didn't Susan's aunt use a lot of 'thou's and 'thy's and 'thee's?
    I remember there being a justification for her use of words like that, but I don't recall entirely.
    that would imply that they have their own 'olde english' in Mid-world alongside High and Low Speech. I'm assuming by Olde English we're all meaning the sort of stuff like Chaucer and Shakespeare used? I think a more apt analogy, assuming I'm right about Susan's aunt implying they have their own 'olde low speech,' would be to say that High Speech more resembles the Anglo-Saxon language that English evolved from. You know, that language Beowulf was originally written in. I remember an AP Lit teacher showing the class some things translated from that to Shakespearian-era english, and then modern english with the intent of showing us that the same phrase in each version is somewhat recognizable to modern audiences that are monolingual.

    Additionally, I remember there being a part where a single High Speech letter was described as "Zn." What does that mean? Not entirely sure, but it definitely says something about the High Speech alphabet, right? Of course, this thread is complicated enough without necessarily considering differing alphabets or writing systems.
    I'm sure if anyone were interested in checking further into either of these, they might find a little more enlightenment to share with the rest of us, as I'm too interested in reading the final installment to backtrack and check those two leads out.
    the first thing I referenced would be from Wizard and Glass, but I'm not sure I remember which piece the "Zn" thing was from. It could be from any book after The Drawing of the Three.

  24. #74
    Traveler nearlyprescient is on a distinguished road

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    In response to Eddie not understanding Roland's conversation with the Slow Mutant, that was shortly after meeting S.K.
    and in response to us never seeing a phonetic example of the High Speech, that would be the one occasion that comes to mind.
    I think it was also written out rather than described at the beginning of Roland's conversation with Calvin Tower upon their first meeting in East Stoneham.

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    Sorry if I'm double posting, but it appears that my well constructed, somewhat lengthy post got lost somewhere in transmission.
    but, my point was that Susan's Aunt uses 'thee' and 'thou' and such, even going so far as to suggest at one point that she's entitled to use those sorts of words for some reason. the reason escapes me, but it suggests that there might be an 'Olde Low Speech' equivalent to what people have been describing as 'Olde English.'
    my point is that it might be more relevant to equate High Speech with that Anglo-Saxon language that Beowulf was written in.
    An English Lit. teacher, during our Beowulf unit, brought in examples of a phrase that was written three times on a sheet; once in Anglo-Saxon, once in Shakespeare or Chaucer's 'Olde English', and finally in a modern, 2008-2009 English.
    the difference was noticeable, but most of us students were capable of puzzling through the phrase in Anglo-Saxon. It was foreign and yet familiar at the same time, which is sort of how High Speech/English are compared in the story.
    I seem to remember my teacher suggesting that a lot of profanity came directly from Anglo-Saxon as the evolution of languages had Anglo-Saxon at one point as a low language. she said that a number of words came almost directly, but the majority of those such words were what would be considered vulgar in modern days.

    Yup. Two posts. Sorry. I'm not sure why the first one wasn't showing up for me. I guess this one should be removed, but I feel like I explained the Anglo-Saxon thing better here.
    Last edited by nearlyprescient; 04-21-2009 at 01:04 PM. Reason: double post

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