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Thread: Keystone World *DT7 spoilers*

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    So, saving the Tower not only halts/slows the decline of Mid-World but it also prevents/slows the decay of Keystone World. Hmm, again I say interesting.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    What initially gave me this impression is the first time that Roland sees Eddie's world (I guess it isn't Key Stone, but it serves the point). Several times on the way to Balazzar's in DT 2, Roland goes on and on in Eddie's head about how his (Eddie's) world hasn't moved on. Paper abounds, medicine abounds, buildings touch the sky etc... I re read it late last year, and I still feel the same way.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I'm bumping my own thread, not because I'm egomaniacal, but bc I don't want Jean and Jayson to forget about it.

  4. #29
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    I will not forget, but I may have to reread the later volumes first. I never paid enough attention to the ontology while reading (of all philosophy it has always presented the least interest to the bear)

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    nor have i forgotten Ryan. i've been trying to wrap my head around it for awhile now. i have to admit the "Keystone" thing never meant more to me than just being the world King lives in. the whole notion of one world being as "twin" of the other is confusing and one i have yet to be able to really put my finger on what it means. bc of this thread i am attempting again to figure out what i think king means by all of this. more to follow hopefully...

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Take your time, dear friends, I just wanted to let you guys know that I was anxious to hear your wisdom.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    As am I. Fellow junkies unite!

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Aye Monte. You say true.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    So, here's a question for you jude (or anyone else, of course).
    If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories, how did the "other worlds than these" come to be before King? Or, is King adding to an already existing number of levels?
    Do you take my meaning?

  10. #35
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories, how did the "other worlds than these" come to be before King? Or, is King adding to an already existing number of levels?
    Monte, that is the crux of what i keep struggling with. surely King can't have "created" all of the other worlds as he exists within a specific period in time. the whole Keystone thing never sits right with me however i look at it.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    I agree with you but I still question why he could not have created them, even though he existed in only one time period. If King writes about something that takes place before he exists, doesn't that make it exist...before himself?

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    So, here's a question for you jude (or anyone else, of course).
    If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories

    I don't believe this. The worlds were created by Gan, I don't think they are tied together by way of King's stories, they are tied together by the Beams. King's role is of a facilitator or singer of Gan's song. Now Gan's song maybe is making new worlds...
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  13. #38
    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    So, here's a question for you jude (or anyone else, of course).
    If Mid-World and the Keystone World are indeed special/different and we believe that the many levels of the Tower are tied to King by way of his other stories

    I don't believe this. The worlds were created by Gan, I don't think they are tied together by way of King's stories, they are tied together by the Beams. King's role is of a facilitator or singer of Gan's song. Now Gan's song maybe is making new worlds...
    Ok, then how can we explain the different levels of, New York, for example. King writes something one way, that isn't correct or that is different (ie, Eddie's hometown) and this world/level exists. Right? Or do you think that Gan already created those different New Yorks where little things may be different?

    I always saw it that King wrote about Takuro Spirits and Nozzala existing in one or more of his stories and those became/were different levels of Earth/New York. I guess I believe Gan created "the worlds" in a sense but not creating all of the different levels/different particularties of the Tower. Damn good point though, CK.

  14. #39
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Stephen King wrote Gan into creation so Gan could create all those worlds before King was created.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    Ok, then how can we explain the different levels of, New York, for example. King writes something one way, that isn't correct or that is different (ie, Eddie's hometown) and this world/level exists. Right? Or do you think that Gan already created those different New Yorks where little things may be different?
    I always saw it that King wrote about Takuro Spirits and Nozzala existing in one or more of his stories and those became/were different levels of Earth/New York. I guess I believe Gan created "the worlds" in a sense but not creating all of the different levels/different particularties of the Tower. Damn good point though, CK.
    How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  16. #41
    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Oh, I like that line of thinking, CK.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.
    this line of thinking is making it easier for me to understand.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.
    When Roland puts Sai King into a trance at his home:

    "Roland raised his mutilated right hand. 'When you do, you'll start with how I lost my fingers. Do you remember?'
    'Lobstosities,' King said. 'Bit them off.'
    'And how do you know that?'
    King smiled a little and made a gentle wissshhhing sound. 'The wind blows,' said he.
    'Gan bore the world and moved on," Roland replied. 'Is that what you mean to say?'
    'Aye, and the world would have fallen into the abyss if not for the great turtle. Instead of falling, it landed on his back.'"

    So...
    Gan created everything originally, Sai King says.
    But Roland and the tet need Sai King to write the rest of the story.
    Is this to say that if Sai King doesn't record as this comes to him, it never comes to be? Even though it's already been created by Gan?

    Or has it?

    "Gan bore the world."
    Like a mother bears her child?
    Or like a turtle bears a weight upon it's back?

    The more I look at it I'm almost lead to believe the latter. The world was already created, by Sai King or whomever, and Gan just played a supporting role. In fact, the world would have "fallen into the abyss" if not for the great turtle who saved the (already created?) world from falling.

    Is this making any sense?
    Thoughts?


    EDIT: Also, I realize this really has nothing to do with the Keystone World. Say sorry - it just seemed like where the thread was headed... Or should I copy/paste it to the trance thread All_Hail started?


  19. #44
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    You're fine SJ, its very related. I just read the part where Jake dies in DT 7 a couple of days ago and had similar thoughts running through my head. Why does King have to live? I keep asking myself that and I'm finding it harder and harder to answer. If he is merely a facilitator, then why does Jake have to die? Why can't someone else write out Gan's song?

    I think the turtle bearing the world is very astute SJ. Gan is presented as creator, but not the sustainer. Ka is presented (at least to me) as a separate entity in the series, and not necessarily a constituent of Gan. They almost seem at odds.

    I just woke up, so I'm not going to delve into this further right now. But Gan certainly needs a little help to get shit done in the multiverse.

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Why does King have to live?
    He has more tales to tell.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  21. #46
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Why does King have to live?
    He has more tales to tell.
    Thanks Brice, that solved everything.

  22. #47
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    I know! I try to help where I can.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  23. #48
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unfound One View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds, maybe those various levels of America's for instance. I think both can be happening. For instance there seems to various levels of All-World, for example the All-World of The Eye of the Dragon is slightly different than the one of Roland's where.
    When Roland puts Sai King into a trance at his home:

    "Roland raised his mutilated right hand. 'When you do, you'll start with how I lost my fingers. Do you remember?'
    'Lobstosities,' King said. 'Bit them off.'
    'And how do you know that?'
    King smiled a little and made a gentle wissshhhing sound. 'The wind blows,' said he.
    'Gan bore the world and moved on," Roland replied. 'Is that what you mean to say?'
    'Aye, and the world would have fallen into the abyss if not for the great turtle. Instead of falling, it landed on his back.'"

    So...
    Gan created everything originally, Sai King says.
    But Roland and the tet need Sai King to write the rest of the story.
    Is this to say that if Sai King doesn't record as this comes to him, it never comes to be? Even though it's already been created by Gan?
    Right, the force of Gan is passing through SK, he is the conduit for Gan's song..hence "kas-ka Gan" or "Singer of Gan's Song" or "Prophet of Gan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Unfound One View Post
    Or has it?

    "Gan bore the world."
    Like a mother bears her child?
    Or like a turtle bears a weight upon it's back?

    The more I look at it I'm almost lead to believe the latter. The world was already created, by Said King or whomever, and Gan just played a supporting role. In fact, the world would have "fallen into the abyss" if not for the great turtle who saved the (already created?) world from falling.
    How would SK have created the multiverse when he only lived within period of time within it? Gan created the multiverse out of the Prim or "primal chaos" and every generation there is a new kas-ka Gan to sing Gan's song or to be the funnel for His water. Now how or why Gan needs a kas-ka is probably a good subject for another thread.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  24. #49
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Then why does King have to live? Its relative to this thread IMO. Why not just pick another? I.e Roland's life seems contingent upon King's (the shared hip pain and headaches), but Mid-World was not created by King- or so we have seemed to have decided.

  25. #50
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Then why does King have to live? Its relative to this thread IMO. Why not just pick another? I.e Roland's life seems contingent upon King's (the shared hip pain and headaches), but Mid-World was not created by King- or so we have seemed to have decided.
    I don't understand why Gan needs a kas-ka. Its something to think about.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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