So the Horn... hey, let's stop for a sec

[Letti]

If he has to repeat his loop from the desert - that's what we all think - , how could he pick up the horn???
Maybe it's a very very stupid question and I cry your pardon if it's obvious but I have been thinking of it for awhile and it gives me more questions.

If he has to start his quest from the desert he has NO chance to pick up the horn... Jericho Hill was ages before that...
So how does it work?

[OchrisO]

The horn was placed on the stairs of the tower by whatever force(Gan, I'd imagine), so he picks it up before he goes through the door, not after when he is in the desert again. One can assume that him finding the horn tehre will somehow allow him to have it this time when he appears in the desert again, having changed things somehow to wher ehe didn't drop it at Jericho Hill.

Or perhaps not even changing his memory of Jericho Hill, but he just wake sup in the desert and has the Horn, which would maybe give him some sort of clue as to what he should dodifferently this time.

[obscurejude]

It has been suggested before that the horn was a gift from Gan based on Roland's growth during the 19th cycle.

[Ka-tet]

It has been suggested before that the horn was a gift from Gan based on Roland's growth during the 19th cycle.

And there you have it.

[Daghain]

I was going to say pretty much what obscurejude said. It is alluded to be a gift from the Tower - it's way of saying things may be different this time.

[jayson]

It has been suggested before that the horn was a gift from Gan based on Roland's growth during the 19th cycle.

And there you have it.

except it's also been suggested that the cycle we read was far from the 19th. i'd say the number of loops to this point we read is closer to delah than to 19. and as delah means beyond counting, so that sounds like A LOT more than 19 times. still, the ultimate point remains, horn as gift from gan. that i agree with.

[obscurejude]

Jayson, so picky. It was just a suggestion. Don't have your 19th nervous breakdown.

[Ka-tet]

At least we agree on that ^_^

[jayson]

Don't have your 19th nervous breakdown.

that's also closer to delah than 19.

[Jean]

Horn as gift from Gan or anyone else ruins the whole story for me.

::tiptoes away with his own opinion::

[obscurejude]

*calls after Jean for opinion*

[Daghain]

Oh, no you don't. Care to explain that?

[Ka-tet]

Yeah Jean, do tell.

[Jean]

sorry, I won't sound very coherent now,- tired after a working day - will just sketch it roughly. Any story is, for me, the story of a human soul, or else it doesn't have any meaning; Roland's redemption is important, the subordination of the worlds is not; Roland not picking that damned horn at Jericho Hill was for me the key to his nature; Roland picking the horn means he has changed radically. The horn is of no importance; Roland is all-important. The horn falling from the sky is a computer-game bonus, go on to the next level, you have two more lives left. The horn picked by Roland at the moment when it was a silly, irrational thing to do is a whole different thing. A Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn.

[Ka-tet]

^ Left me breathless, thanks Jean.

Do you mind if i quote " Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn." ?

[jayson]

sorry, I won't sound very coherent now,- tired after a working day - will just sketch it roughly. Any story is, for me, the story of a human soul, or else it doesn't have any meaning; Roland's redemption is important, the subordination of the worlds is not; Roland not picking that damned horn at Jericho Hill was for me the key to his nature; Roland picking the horn means he has changed radically. The horn is of no importance; Roland is all-important. The horn falling from the sky is a computer-game bonus, go on to the next level, you have two more lives left. The horn picked by Roland at the moment when it was a silly, irrational thing to do is a whole different thing. A Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn.

i see where you are coming from, and agree to an extent i suppose. however, for me the notion that the loops are the same is what is akin to a video game. if it's always, jericho hill and tull and jake it becomes a sequence of events to master, like in a video game. "pick up horn, turn left at tull, don't drop boy" and you get to the next level.

[Ka-tet]

^ Another good point.

[Jean]

ah, but even Jericho Hill is not the point! Roland behaving irrationally for the sake of something other than expedience, however, is. Let it be a different situation, but let him act there; Jericho Hill of the previous loop would then itself be just a hint, a pointer, a metaphor of what might happen on the next turn of the spiral, even if it doesn't happen on Jericho Hill per se.

[Ka-tet]

I dont think i completly understood last time.

What your saying is even if Roland dosnt pick up the horn he can still reach the top?

[Jean]

No, I'm saying the point is he picks it himself, whatever the circumstances. It's the question of his choice, not of picking up an artefact.

[obscurejude]

But Jean, if Roland is awarded the horn based on significant ontological progression, its still about his soul the way I see it. Are you saying the concept of reciprocity between Gan and Roland is like a video game? It seems to me, that it is a bi-lateral contingency with the loop. If, then... Why else would there be a loop, or even suggestions of "redemption."

[Letti]

^ Left me breathless, thanks Jean.

Do you mind if i quote " Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn." ?

It think it can be a spoiler.

Horn as gift from Gan or anyone else ruins the whole story for me.

Oh, you have no idea how happy I was to see this line. I started to think that I am the only weirdo again.
Thank you.
Horn as a gift from Gan... no way for me.
For me it's only one acceptable way of the Horn. That Roland himself picked it up. There is only one question left in my mind; how could he do it if he starts his loop from the desert?

[Jean]

Nikolett: did you notice that most of the times you think you're the only weirdo we end up being two weirdos?

obscure: I have exhausted my thinking capacity (not much to begin with, as it is often the case with the ursine). We're entering the realm of very subtle things, where not only metaphysics, antropology or moral philosophy, but aesthetics is of primary importance; I'll get back to your argument when find the words.
[roughly: choice and action, and exercizing one's free will versus being estimated, appraised and rewarded/punished... subject of action face to face with his conscience versus two-subjects relation in which one necessarily becomes an object...]
(it's all getting more and more interesting, of course)

[Letti]

Nikolett: did you notice that most of the times you think you're the only weirdo we end up being two weirdos?

And what could be better than being a weirdo with Jean? *hug*

[Jean]