The Crimson King *spoilers*

[DoctorDodge]

I think one of the key things to take into account is what we learn of the Crimson King's nature in the novel Black House. Mainly, that this being is (Black House spoilers here):

Spoiler:

simulataneously a god near the top of the Tower AND a being that exists in Mid-World in his Court and Castle. To quote an earlier post of mine, in Black House Parkus/Speedy states that the Crimson King is "pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King." Like Jack says, the Red King is in "Two places at once."

The second manifestation is Los' the Red King, the creature Roland faced at the end of his quest. We know this because Los' was the one who dwelt in Le Casse Roi Russe, the court and castle of the King. As Jack says in Black House, the Crimson King "is presumably hanging out in his court (the part of him that isn't imprisoned in Speedys Dark Tower that is)."

What this would mean is that its only an avatar of the true Red King Roland meets at the end of DT7. And quite possible a significantly less powerful version too.

Just because its an avatar doesn't mean its weak though, far from it. We already learn what the Red King did to his castle of minions in DT7....he would be able to wipe Roland out with a thought if not for a few things (DT7 spoilers follow):

Spoiler:

Firstly, the Crimson King is trapped on a balcony by Gan. Recall what we learned of what a balcony of the Tower is:

"Reality is organic, reality is alive."

"In any case, theres this hypodermic hole in the living flesh of reality....this balcony on the flank of the Dark Tower."

"a balcony on the Tower; when we come here we're outside the Tower but still attached to the Tower."

"It's a place outside of time, outside of reality."

Basically, the King isn't technically part of reality anymore....he is trapped beyond it, the only connection being the doorway back into the Tower. The fact that the Crimson King could manage to send anything back through into reality and attack Roland (such as sneetches) shows how powerful the King could be.

Secondly, the fact that when the last fight took place the two characters were miles from each other - the Crimson King kept Roland at bay. They were 5 miles apart!

An excellent explanation, Tik. I agree with others that the final battle between Roland and the Crimson King was dissapointing, but it's one of very few things that I didn't like about the final volume, I absolutely loved everything else. Besides, considering how powerful Stephen King made the Crimson King over his many novels, any battle that justified that kind of power would've meant that Roland would've been dead before he got anywhere near the field of roses! So the final battle, whilst slightly dissapointing, is something I'm willing to forgive, considering the only other option would've been to have Roland become some kind of God to defeat the Crimson King, something which would've left the rest of us a lot more pissed off, I think.

[woodpryan]

I was also pretty disappointed with the ending in that sense. The loop didn't piss me off, but the Crimson King getting erased out of existence seemed like too much of a cop out for me. It felt extremely rushed. I felt like I was cheated out of a huge battle scene. I didn't even get to read about the Battle of Jerico Hill. I was pretty disappointed with that. I loved every word of this series up until the last 50 pages or so.

[Atanóno Fána]

The fact is that the real power of the Red King is not known and certainly not be something big. He had a basic knowledge of magic, like a spider venom, telepathy, shapeshift, and All-World as one of the few he could use the machine (it could just a especially Good man, his nephew James, the Grissom and maybe Walter and Grissom´s son.) Everything else is debatable, could draw their power, as it could have a few defeats much to lose (see Sauron and the One Ring - it is possible that the Red King put on something of the power, viz.'s Defeat in Insomnia and BH.). His real power was in the servants, without them, like most other supernatural villains, and makes no reference bypass was reduced to a mere clown, politically all the laughter.

Indeed, I believe that benefited primarily from the fact that he had many powerful allies, and its great advantage to be mere legend (his age, immortality, kinship with Eld, and various rumors about his power, though all could be an illusion, phantom, fraud) which attracted people like Walter and Farson. Indeed, without these two would be barely able to do something significant in Mid-World, otherwise it would have done it before. Of course, a power far greater than man, he had, but not be so crucial for the development of events, if not thousands of servants and helpers, corporations (LaMerk, Sombra) or remnants of the Old People ...

The last thing is that so insane that its power to "disappear" the mere shock, impatience, fear (as a man, if nervous, but rather will be in a car crash than if calm person - the punch line is the same). A tower may actually allow him to use his full strength. It is interesting comparison with Saruman, who also lost his power and his only strength was only a voice (see lullaby for Patrick and manipulation of Mordred).
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[cozener]

He was as crazy as possible so even if he had power he couldn't use it anymore. He had no control over himself. I think that's why he behaved the way he did. He failed.
Anyway I never thought him God-like.

I had always assumed this too...lost much of his power to insanity.

[snakebit]

I am very interested in learning more about the Crimson King. We the readers are told throughout many Steven King's books that he is the "Top Dog" bad guy. I have to admit that I have read many Steven King's books, but only read them once. I am going to start going through the dark Tower series again. But what do we really know about the Crimson King? We know he definitely associates himself with some nasty individuals and entities. We also know that he has gone insane for some reason and is set on the destruction of the universe. But why? Roland is an incredible character, but he is not all good. He would sacrifice anybody to fulfill his obsession of reaching the Dark Tower.

Spoiler:

Jake, Eddie, and even would have sacrificed King himself, instead of saving him, if it meant getting to the tower.

So if Roland is not all good, does the Crimson King have to be all bad?

Spoiler:

Roland wanders for eternity in a loop where he must always destroy the Crimson King to reach tower. How many times has he killed the Crimson King 1, 10, 100..? Roland shortly forgets he has made the journey before, but what if the Crimson King can't erase the number of times he erased or destroyed by Roland. What if someone was stuck in a loop to destroy you over and over again, would that not make you crazy?

Who is good? Who is evil? Or maybe they are both a little of both. Maybe they are just twinners of each other and destined to do this over and over again to keep balance in the universe. it did indicate they were somone how related. I would love for King to write a book about the Crimson King. where he came from, how he recruits his henchman, why he went crazy, and why he wants to destroy the universe. maybe titled "Interview with the Crimson King" lol. Comments, ideas, and speculations please

[John Blaze]

Maybe he's destroyed Rolan upon his reaching the tower. I don't think the "reset' button is just for Roland. Maybe he's lost a couple of times before too.

I honestly hated the whole anti-climax that was Mr. "EEEEEEE". What a disappointment.

For future reference, if you have spoilers in your title you don't need to use spoiler tags. Nice first post, btw, and welcome to TDT.com

[snakebit]

thanks John!

[LadyHitchhiker]

I like to play with the idea of him not being all bad either.

What has made him crazy? What has made him be the man/thing he is?

[LyleDraconis]

Ok, check this out. In the Dark Tower series, the Crimson King is the insane, genocidal, maniac whose one goal is to break the beams of the Dark Tower, thus breaking the one true force holding all of reality and existence in it's (mostly) proper place. But this is common knowledge here, among us Constant Readers. But, think of this: Is he really insane? A little touched in the head, if you pardon the joke, but how bonkers is he really?

Think of this: When the Crimson King sees his death at the hands of Roland Deschain in Maerlin's Grapefruit, he promptly forces all of his servants (except one) to drink poison and die, which sometimes happens with poison. He proceeds to swallow a sharpened spoon in order to kill himself and destroy any chance that Roland has to kill him with the Guns of Eld. Then he gets on his horse and rides to the Dark Tower. (lol)

To kill one's self, so someone else can't have the pleasure (read: duty) of it, is normally considered insane and paranoid. Yet, in doing so the Crimson King became undead and kept himself forever safe from the dangers of the Artifacts of Arthur Eld. He is now safe from any kind of death, because he is already dead. (Remember that sharpened spoon?)

What the Crimson King did was actually a very good move. He knew he wouldn't truly die, just technically. And, as mentioned above, he prevented the possibility of Roland ever killing him, preventing him from destroying the Tower. That brings me to another point: the Crimson King's ultimate goal to destroy everything, ever.

Technically, he just wishes to destroy everything which was created from the Prim, which is basically the primordial soup, only with a more believable story behind it (it gushed out of some guy's belly button). He wishes to rule over the Prim and control everything that survives in it. This should really be impossible, but if you do a bit of studying in the concordance, you'll find in the entry for the Crimson King that he was an illegitimate son of Aurthur Eld, who probably got it on with a demon of some sort. Since Arthur Eld was basically the Chosen One of all existence ('cept Roland, who's a direct but distant descendant) this means that the Crimson King would have some powerful ka about him. Is it really so ignorant for him to believe he could survive the destruction of reality? Friggin' Roland has been living out countless cycles of his life until he can learn from his many repetitive and predictable mistakes, making him a couple thousand years old, and he's just a descendant from a long line of Elds! The Crimson King and Roland are related, which is a mind-f*&% in itself, but the Crimson King being an actual son of Eld (and a freaking demon!) should actually be able to exist outside of existence. My point being, his claims may be unbelievable at first realization, but are they insane? Improbable? Impossible? Or is he really able to destroy everything beyond the Prim except himself? It's not like he wouldn't have anything thing to rule over, either. The Prim has sprouted Life once before, what's to stop it from happening again? And the things in-between worlds, in what's called the Todash Darkness? They wouldn't even feel a draft when Reality split. They'd only get more breathing room and a reason to smile. His motives and goals may be dark, terrifying, murderous and paranoid, but, indeed, not insane.

Discuss.

[Jean]

LyleDraconis: thank you for posting! Since you've indicated in the title that it was a spoiler thread, you don't have to mark your spoilers in your posts

This thread may later be moved and/or merged.

[LyleDraconis]

LyleDraconis: thank you for posting! Since you've indicated in the title that it was a spoiler thread, you don't have to mark your spoilers in your posts

This thread may later be moved and/or merged.

Heh, the only reason I did that was because the :radioactive: symbol refused to show in the title, despite the fact that other icons would. So, I compromised. If it's still alright though, I'll edit

Also, I just realized there is whole subcategory for individual character discussion, so I apologize.

[pathoftheturtle]

...is he really able to destroy everything beyond the Prim except himself? ...

Not unless he can conquer the DarK Tower.

[Jean]

I have added the radioactive icon now

[LyleDraconis]

I have added the radioactive icon now

Thanks!

[Jean]

thank you for removing the spoiler tags

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

He probably went crazy because he did not suffer the same amnisia that Roland did. CK knew he was going to die over and over again, thus his insane mission to destroy everything.

[velcro_fly]

He probably went crazy because he did not suffer the same amnisia that Roland did. CK knew he was going to die over and over again, thus his insane mission to destroy everything.

In the same way that Roland and Jake were going insane, because of the two separate realities they remembered. The memory of Jakes' first death conflicted with the memory of Jake still living in New York and began to tear both of them apart.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

The whole concept of Jake dying once and then coming back and dying again bothered me. No one else I can remember off the top of my head had the same fortune of dying and then coming back from another realm. Only Jake had this happen to him. I don't know what it is, but I know King had a reason for it. One day I will figure it out.

[Seneschal]

i can only suppose the answer would be, "ka."

[velcro_fly]

Father Callahan had a similar experience. Although his first death was not in the DT series, just retold.

[HellBeast]

You could argue that considering the Crimson King's background, i.e. the bastard son of Arthur Eld and a demon, he is capable of possessing an intelligence far superior to mere humans.

I agree that he could have had the foresight to take his own life in the manner in which he did, and for the reasons that you suggest. I think the Crimson King is a very complex character. I don't mean to humanize the embodiment of Evil in the Dark Tower multiverse, but there had to be some serious separation issues if you're the bastard spawn of Arthur Eld and a demon-whore that's gotta change you... haha.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

I believe in some way the Crimson King is actually Stephen King's dark half (lol pun).

Here is a good discussion kick: Saying the Crimson King went insane and wanted to end reality because he knew Roland would have him done in, then we can ask ourselves another question: What if Roland died?

What if he just died. Someone shot him in the back of the head, or the Dark Man finally did him in. Would the Red one still want to destroy all existence? Would he maybe just chill out and not be so destructive? I wonder about this. It seems CK is just as stubborn about ending every multiverse as Roland is about finding that tower.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

I wonder if CK and Roland are the same being. I have been thinking about this. I would reveal what my ideas are behind this conclusion, but I want to see what others believe.

[a fan]

the ck wasa insane smart but insane it was his job to protect the tower not distory it and on matter what lineage he has he would be plunged into the same nothingness as every one else and the fact that he dosent see it is even more insane evey thing (apart from killing him self) that he dose in the book king wrote was insane

[pathoftheturtle]

I wonder if CK and Roland are the same being. I have been thinking about this. I would reveal what my ideas are behind this conclusion, but I want to see what others believe.

Palaver >> Mid-World >> The Baronies >> The Dark Tower >> Reasons of a Red King