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View Poll Results: Is He a Villain

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  • No he's just crazy

    12 18.75%
  • Yes, because he is crazy

    16 25.00%
  • He is a mean mean man

    14 21.88%
  • He hasn't always been

    12 18.75%
  • He is as much a villian as possible.

    21 32.81%
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Thread: The Crimson King *spoilers*

  1. #51
    Gunslinger Apprentice Tik will become famous soon enough Tik's Avatar

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    That was a great post Tik and the end there is really insightful. I learn something new everyday and love the perspective.
    Why, thankie-sai!
    A very interesting theory. Going by this theory we could assume that

    Spoiler:
    the Crimson King's "true" form still sits at the top of the Tower?
    Indeed. O'course, when it says

    Spoiler:
    top of the Tower, that doesn't mean the top Room of the Tower. Like Brainslinger says, that Room is where God is rumoured to be. In Insomnia the little doctors (long-timers) state that the Kings Random influence probably stops at a certain level:

    "...perhaps there is no Random beyond a certain level; we suspect that may be the case, but we have no real way of telling."

    That means the Kings true form, Dis, is at least one level/room below the very top Room. Still at the top of the Tower, but not in that last Room where God is rumoured to be.


    Even though Dis is still there (he has to be, the Random is a fundemental part of existance) his one chance of escaping and destroying the Tower is now gone by the end of DT7. He will forever be imprisoned there. I find it quite fitting that Dis, the true Crimson King, is forever imprisoned at the top of the Tower whereas Los' the Crimson King becomes trapped on a balcony at the bottom of the Tower. Both manifestations are, by the end of DT7, Tower Pent.

  2. #52
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Hey darlings... just one thing. You needn't use spoiler tags here. I love to see them anywhere around the forum but here.

    CK as an ex-gunslinger... it doesn't work for me at all. The idea is really interesting (and shocking) but for me - no way.
    We don't get enough information from the books to know the history of the CK and I know there is much more information in the comics still I imagine the CK as an ex-human who was crazy about power who lost or sold his soul many times and became some kind of powerful soulless monster.

    Roland would have understood.

  3. #53
    Citizen of Gilead Empath of the White is on a distinguished road Empath of the White's Avatar

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    Recall the King's history: half-human, half-Prim demon. I have to wonder if the drastic differences in the genetics--not sure if this is a good term when speaking of the Prim demons...maybe bloodlines?--would affect the sanity of Los from the get-go. Its like human and mundane meets seemingly insane divinity. That should lead to one conflicted child.

  4. #54
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    I thought I'd better use the spoiler tags mainly as I was referring to comic material, but I agree. Anything book related certainly doesn't need spoiler tags here, considering everyone should have read all the books by the time they come here (unless they don't mind being spoiled.)

  5. #55
    John F. Kennedy Silvermoth is on a distinguished road Silvermoth's Avatar

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    Fasinating concept of the Crimson King as a failed gunslinger. Wasn't it written that he too was descended from Arthur Eld in one of the books? Or (just chucking it out there) the King is Arthur Eld!

  6. #56
    Kvothe The Bloodless SigTauGimp is on a distinguished road SigTauGimp's Avatar

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    Tik's posts absolutely blew my mind.

    I've never really thought all that much about who the Crimson King actually WAS until reading it...very fascinating stuff.

    Elodin: "Tombs is for feckless twits who can't chew their own food. My boy's a Re'lar! He has the feck of twenty men!"

    Kvothe: “Books are a poor substitute for female companionship, but they are easier to find.”

    Simmon: ”It’s just ointment in case you get burned...but if you mix it with piss, it turns into candy.” Sim’s expression was deadpan. “Delicious candy.”


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  7. #57
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    If Crimson King is a failed gunslinger, does that mean Roland could end up taking HIS place eventually?

  8. #58
    Kvothe The Bloodless SigTauGimp is on a distinguished road SigTauGimp's Avatar

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    But Roland isn't a failed gunslinger...although, it would be a neat idea to think that, what with all the time loops, paradoxes, and levels of the Tower, somehow, after all of his many repeats of his journey, he became aware of his failures, and turned bitter....finally becoming the Crimson King...I know that there are waaayyy too many plot discrepancies for it to actually work, but it's neat to think about...kinda makes ya dizzy.

    Elodin: "Tombs is for feckless twits who can't chew their own food. My boy's a Re'lar! He has the feck of twenty men!"

    Kvothe: “Books are a poor substitute for female companionship, but they are easier to find.”

    Simmon: ”It’s just ointment in case you get burned...but if you mix it with piss, it turns into candy.” Sim’s expression was deadpan. “Delicious candy.”


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  9. #59
    John F. Kennedy Silvermoth is on a distinguished road Silvermoth's Avatar

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    I have more faith in Roland then that. I'm sure theres a critical part of the Crimson King's mentality that doesn't exist in Roland's which would stop him from being the apothesis of evil the way the King did

  10. #60
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    It's a paradox, obviously, if his motivation for trying to destroy the Tower is his frustration at the results of his failure to destroy the Tower. Which came first?
    Quite possible, though, I wot: although his actions are a key factor causing the loop, he may refuse to accept any responsiblity and so get more angry at Gan and lash out more, thus giving himself ever more to be angry about.

    The Dark Tower itself is often said to be a dual entity, in that it is an actual tower on one world and also is the multiverse, with all worlds on its various levels. I think that "the top of the Tower" is just another way of saying "the final loop" and that the "true form" of the CK basically is all of the versions of him taken together in a transcendent, mystical whole.

  11. #61
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    The Dark Tower itself is often said to be a dual entity, in that it is an actual tower on one world and also is the multiverse, with all worlds on its various levels. I think that "the top of the Tower" is just another way of saying "the final loop" and that the "true form" of the CK basically is all of the versions of him taken together in a transcendent, mystical whole.
    I strongly agree. Very perceptive of you as usual. I think that's what the part in Black House is referring to.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  12. #62
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    The Dark Tower itself is often said to be a dual entity, in that it is an actual tower on one world and also is the multiverse, with all worlds on its various levels. I think that "the top of the Tower" is just another way of saying "the final loop" and that the "true form" of the CK basically is all of the versions of him taken together in a transcendent, mystical whole.
    I strongly agree. Very perceptive of you as usual. I think that's what the part in Black House is referring to.
    That might explain why Patrick had to paint the eyes red rather than 'capture him' the usual way he did everyone else. To gain the essence of what he is, more than just the bloke on the balcony.

  13. #63
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post

    That might explain why Patrick had to paint the eyes red rather than 'capture him' the usual way he did everyone else. To gain the essence of what he is, more than just the bloke on the balcony.
    Right-on. I think that is what Patrick meant by "he darkles and tincts".
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  14. #64
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Yar, and the fact that one of the roses had to be used along with the blood of Eld in order to get the color supports the idea that CK's experience with the Tower is what makes him more than mortal.

    To clarify my points, though, I'm not so sure about this part:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gantoad View Post
    ...Maybe CK was a gunslinger, or perhaps a better term is crusader? Maybe CK went on the Quest before in far older days, and maybe he's suffered the Loop too? ...
    He's suffering the loop, alright, but I'm okay with the idea that what we saw could be more or less the first time. I don't think he was ever much like Roland.

  15. #65
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    I believe the CK's immortality comes from the fact that he was born part "Great One" of the Prim. Definitely never a gunslinger. He was born to destroy the Tower not to defend it.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  16. #66
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    I believe the CK's immortality comes from the fact that he was born part "Great One" of the Prim. Definitely never a gunslinger. He was born to destroy the Tower not to defend it.
    Agreed. He may be descended from a Gunslinger parent, but that's where it ends.

  17. #67
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    I think it's funny they're named the prim. Prim and proper...

  18. #68
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    I believe the CK's immortality comes from the fact that he was born part "Great One" of the Prim. ...
    Well, I really appreciate your earlier compliment, even if we don't agree totally. I do think that that is part of it, too, though. The puzzler is: Did his origin cause his destiny or did his destiny cause his origin?

  19. #69
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    It's sure something to think on.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  20. #70
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Renamed the thread for general discussion of the character.

  21. #71
    Gunslinger Apprentice Kes is on a distinguished road Kes's Avatar

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    :radioactive: ***Potential Spoilers*** The Crimson King

    Okay...my apologies if this has already been discussed. And I hope I got the whole spoiler thing correct. (Mods feel free to fix it if I didn't).

    I did a search but couldn't find anything that seemed the same as what I'm about to suggest...


    So...one of the things that I thought was left rather undefined in the series is the Crimson King.

    It occurs to me that perhaps the Crimson King, Stephen King, and Roland are perhaps all aspects of each other. (It's said in one of the books that Roland looks enough like King to be his father.)

    Could the Crimson King be a multiversional Roland who went mad? How else could the Crimson King even have accessed the Tower at all without a sigul of Eld?

    This would certainly explain Mordred's parentage and how BOTH could be his father....

    Thoughts? I'm still working this all out in my head.

  22. #72
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Wow, what an interesting idea.
    No, I don't think that Roland and the Crimson King are the same person or twins or anything like that. They exist in the same universe at the same time. We could think that Crimson King is from another universe and he used to be Roland once somewhere far far away... but it's such a strong guess I don't think it stands. No evidence.
    I don't think the fact that they both are the fathers of Mordred can be called and proof either because in a world where people can hide in someone's mind (Mia in Susannah's) be pregnant there and then like a fax machine leave the body to deliver the baby... it's not a big thing to make two sperms become one.
    Anyway Roland isn't that type of person who just goes mad. When he was fighting with the memory of Jake (there was a boy there was no boy) he could hold on for long. To sum up for me it's out of the question but it's a damn interesting question.

    It's true we don't know much about the CK in the DT books but you can find lots of information about him in the comics.

    Roland would have understood.

  23. #73
    shrewd and knavish sprite flaggwalkstheline will become famous soon enough flaggwalkstheline's Avatar

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    I do like the comics explanation of the CK but Im not one 100 percent sure? if it's canonical, I suppose it is since I think all the supplements in the back of the issues are canonical while the issues themselves are not, sheemy a robot? farson not just another disguise for flagg/ walter/ marten? puh-leez
    if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do

  24. #74
    Gunslinger Apprentice Kes is on a distinguished road Kes's Avatar

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    Now I haven't read the comics. Is it worth it?

  25. #75
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Are they worth it? Yes, for the most part they are enjoyable and the art alone is worth it.

    Are they canon? The more I think about it, the more I trend towards saying no. Now that doesn't mean it can't be incorporated into one's individual interpretation of the series, but I don't think it's definitively canon as far as objectively answering any questions.

    Still, if you are interested in some interesting theories about the CK, there is much of it to be found in the comics.

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