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View Poll Results: Is He a Villain

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64. You may not vote on this poll
  • No he's just crazy

    12 18.75%
  • Yes, because he is crazy

    16 25.00%
  • He is a mean mean man

    14 21.88%
  • He hasn't always been

    12 18.75%
  • He is as much a villian as possible.

    21 32.81%
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Thread: The Crimson King *spoilers*

  1. #26
    Along the Path of the Beam Babymordred121 is on a distinguished road Babymordred121's Avatar

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    He was completely evil to begin with, and reigned in complete evil for centuries. His insanity was a rather recent event, but all it's done is warp his character; he's always been evil, but now he's crazy and evil.
    "I serve only one masta: DAAKNESS" - Peter Boil, Swashbuckler

  2. #27
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    I think it would be interesting if there was more of a back story

    like with Randall Flagg

    he was born a man, but he doesn't remember much of that...

    I wonder if it's like that with ck?

  3. #28
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I guess you can find much more about him in the comics, Liz.

    Roland would have understood.

  4. #29
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    Yeah I'm waiting..... I am still getting the comics every few months when Iget to travel an hour to Escanaba to pick up them from the closest comic store...

    But so far no luck....

    No illuminations illuminating to answer my questions...

  5. #30
    Gunslinger Apprentice LemurJones is on a distinguished road

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    I don't think being crazy is any excuse for doing evil things.

    Like, alright. Jeffrey Dahmer? Definitely crazy. But also definitely evil. No matter how crazy you are, you still have a responsibility as a human being.

    The Crimson King might have been a good man once- or he might not have been. Bad people don't just start out good and then become bad when they reach maturity. For all we know, CK might have been a spoiled little sociopathic fuck when he was a kid, and then had hundreds of thousands of years to rot in his own evil head. Or he might have just been a normal or average person with a chip on his shoulder (like Flagg, pretty much) and instead of letting go of things, he just progressively got meaner and darker.

    I think that as an agent of chaos in the universe, that CK's existence was just as necessary as Roland's, but instead of doing what was responsible and healthy for the universe he chose to pursue greed. So that makes him a villain.
    "I just know that something good is going to happen."
    ~Utah Saints

  6. #31
    Otter of the Prim cozener will become famous soon enough cozener will become famous soon enough cozener's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    I don't think being crazy is any excuse for doing evil things.

    Like, alright. Jeffrey Dahmer? Definitely crazy. But also definitely evil. No matter how crazy you are, you still have a responsibility as a human being.
    Eh...no. I don't think you, I, or any other sane person can say that. The whole thing about being truly insane is that your mind has stepped outside of the boundaries of rational thought. Civilizations ideas of good and evil, decent or indecent, smart and stupid, wise and foolish...have all gone out the window. I do concede, however, that some people are more insane than others and some insane people do know damn well that what theyre doing is wrong. But I promise you that there are plenty of nutcases that have left our ideas of right and wrong far behind them and have formulated a completely different view of good and evil.

    I do agree that not everyone starts out good. I think there are people out there that are born bad...they have no capacity for understanding the pain of others. But I do believe most people do start out good and grow into evil and almost always before they've even realized what was happening. A soul goes cheap when its being sold a little at a time.

  7. #32
    Gunslinger Apprentice LemurJones is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cozener View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    I don't think being crazy is any excuse for doing evil things.

    Like, alright. Jeffrey Dahmer? Definitely crazy. But also definitely evil. No matter how crazy you are, you still have a responsibility as a human being.
    Eh...no. I don't think you, I, or any other sane person can say that.
    Not to pick a fight, but as someone who's had to grow up with and live with someone who classifies as definitely crazy and probably evil, I'm almost a hundred percent sure that I'm a sane person who qualifies to say that.

    There are people who are definitely crazy- out of their minds, delusional, constantly hallucinating- and yet are not evil. They don't do anything that hurts anyone, even in the middle of their craziest craziness, except for maybe themselves.

    If you believe that people who are crazy and do evil things can't help it, then you might as well just kill them all off instead of letting them get to the point where their psychoses give them allowance to do that kind of thing.
    "I just know that something good is going to happen."
    ~Utah Saints

  8. #33
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    Definitely crazy. But also definitely evil. No matter how crazy you are, you still have a responsibility as a human being.
    I am inclined to think the same

    Also, I didn't vote, because I don't see the only option that would suit me: namely, "yes, he is", without qualifications. I am not satisfied with "mean mean man" because I am not sure he is a man.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. #34
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Also, I didn't vote, because I don't see the only option that would suit me: namely, "yes, he is", without qualifications. I am not satisfied with "mean mean man" because I am not sure he is a man.
    The same here.
    Liz, don't you think that we should give some more options to the poll? It's an important and good question.
    (I voted for mean mean man but it's far from my opinion.)

    Roland would have understood.

  10. #35
    Otter of the Prim cozener will become famous soon enough cozener will become famous soon enough cozener's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cozener View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    I don't think being crazy is any excuse for doing evil things.

    Like, alright. Jeffrey Dahmer? Definitely crazy. But also definitely evil. No matter how crazy you are, you still have a responsibility as a human being.
    Eh...no. I don't think you, I, or any other sane person can say that.
    Not to pick a fight, but as someone who's had to grow up with and live with someone who classifies as definitely crazy and probably evil, I'm almost a hundred percent sure that I'm a sane person who qualifies to say that.

    There are people who are definitely crazy- out of their minds, delusional, constantly hallucinating- and yet are not evil. They don't do anything that hurts anyone, even in the middle of their craziest craziness, except for maybe themselves.
    A debate is not a fight lemur. Although we may be in the wrong place to discuss it...well...maybe not. I think this discussion is relevant to the topic.

    I don't feel that knowing one crazy person, no matter how intimately, qualifies you to judge insanity on the whole...nope. Like I said before, there are different degrees of insanity. I'm sure this person you're talking about is exactly what you say but there are others that aren't...not even close. Depending on the situation, I'm tempted to say that I'd sooner accept that delusions that lead to violence are manifestations of some kind of supernatural evil, ie: the Devil, rather than that the insane person himself is evil. (not that I accept that either)

    But here’s another question about the nature of evil. If an insane person really thinks that going out and killing babies is going to save the world is he evil? His actions are certainly evil but his intentions are pure. I say he's just a sick bastard that needs to, at the very least, be locked away. Of course, I realize that people use the insanity defense to get out of being sent to prison and/or executed but just because many if not most insanity pleas are bogus, it doesn't mean they all are.

    Then you have the “end justifies the means” argument. Is it evil to commit evil deeds if the end result is for the greater good? Was the Crimson King cognizant of the fact that he was evil or did he really feel that the best thing for the universe was for it to cease to exist?

    If you believe that people who are crazy and do evil things can't help it, then you might as well just kill them all off instead of letting them get to the point where their psychoses give them allowance to do that kind of thing.
    I am not suggesting that insanity should be a license to commit murder or any other crime nor am I suggesting (nor would I ever suggest) that insane people or anyone else be killed for any reason other than self defense. The only thing I am arguing is that there are some crazy people that cannot be held accountable for their actions. In saying that they cannot be held accountable I am not saying that they shouldn't be confined to a place where they can't harm anyone else.

    If a crazy person took a sledgehammer to a fountain drink machine in a gas station because they thought the shop owner was poisoning people with it we'd say he's crazy and needs to be committed. But if that same crazy person kills the shop owner because of that same delusion this makes him cognizant, evil, and accountable?

  11. #36
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    I do think good people can go crazy and go bad. My mom did for a while. Now she's medicated and she's cool, but she could go over the bend again. She used to throw me down the stairs and tear out chunks of my hair, and see her deceased brother walking through the grocery store and call me vile names. Now we're the best of friends.

  12. #37
    Citizen of Gilead Empath of the White is on a distinguished road Empath of the White's Avatar

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    I think at first dear baby Los was confused. The role he was born into wasn't exactly normal (not even by Prim standards, I'd think) or simple. He had a decent motive but he used the wrong means to accomplish his goal. Plus the consequences of acheiving his goal through his chosen means didn't seem to register with him, even once. Just look at the ways the Crimson King attempted to bring down the Tower:

    1.) Kidnapping children and sending the rejects into an irradiated Hell (assuming the Forge was in the Discordia).

    2.) Employing a cannibalistic geezer.

    3.) Ensnaring the mind and the "goodness" of a family man: Deepneau from Insomnia.

    4.) Releasing toxins to create the darkness of Thunderclap in a probable attempt to halt Roland's progess.

    So I think very very early in his life, Los wasn't good and wasn't bad. I think it was later that he learned of his purpose. Note: I haven't read the backstory segments from the Gunslinger Born arc so the accuracy of this last statement may be off.

  13. #38
    Gunslinger Apprentice Tony_A is on a distinguished road

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    He's evil. No two ways about it. He may have been insane at the end, but we see that in a lot of megalomaniacs in reality.

  14. #39
    Au Naturale theBeamisHome is on a distinguished road theBeamisHome's Avatar

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    well i say he was evil and he just got insane. but i don't think you can call every evil person insane... Charles Manson.... like the epitome of evil, but i'm not sure i think he's actually insane. of course he doesn't apply to anyone's standard of a normal human being i don't think, but that doesn't actually make him insane. CK... was evil, i think... and then he just went crazy.

    Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.

  15. #40
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    I chose the last three. I'm not totally certain of the latter due to his demon nature, but I'm also aware that Mia was a demon of the prim, yet showed empathy before she became physically humanized or possessed Susannah. I.e. she could have easily seduced and killed the father and taken the baby for her own. She knew it wasn't in the baby's best interest though, and she let them go.

    Los on the other hand is part human,
    Spoiler:
    the very son of Arthur Eld himself.
    His demonic side might have made him more inclined to evil than a human, but is it possible his human side could have redressed the balance? Mordred showed signs of higher feeling and humanity after all (although I do think he's more emotionally complex than his father) so its possible CK did too. I don't really believe that mind, I think he's pretty much evil through and through, worse than Walter even, but it's a possibility.

  16. #41
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    Since the triple homicide in our town I have thought a lot about good and evil....

    And I must say I am even more uncertain about my opinions of good and evil now. Scott Johnson has broken a trust inside of me. A safety that I felt living in this town. Talking to a lonely spacey person and not feeling nervous about it.

    Maybe as the case develops I will develop deeper insights into the insanity plea.... into good and evil, and to what my opinion of this is. But he is just one example.

  17. #42
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    I think there's a huge difference between "evil" as a concept in a fictional work and the notion of "evil" in real life. Simply put, I don't think there is such a thing as an "evil" person in real life. This is not to say that there are not people who commit heinous acts, but I don't think this is due to some overarching concept of evil.

  18. #43
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    I have a hard time defining between SK's character and real characters, because in many cases, the characters in these books are more real to me than a lot of people I know in real life, because they have more depth, or because I can see more of them than others allow me to see into them. I hope that doesn't sound crazy./

  19. #44
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    Default Reasons of a Red King

    Now we know that CK is crazy and evil, but that is not enough in reasons to me. It is mentioned about a pact with a higher (evil) being if the DT were toppled. It is also mentioned about CK gaining his own dominion over the resulting chaos and darkness once the Tower falls. And of course the notion of Twins, and CK being Roland's antithesis. But is that all of the reasons?

    Maybe CK was a gunslinger, or perhaps a better term is crusader? Maybe CK went on the Quest before in far older days, and maybe he's suffered the Loop too? What if the CK remembered each previous loop? It's the sort of dejavu to inspire madness, and resentment for the Tower. I could see him getting to the point where he feels that there is no point to it all, that if this (the loop) is all that there is, then none of it matters. Why value human life when there's always a respawn waiting around the corner? So he grows to hate the Tower, trapped as he is by Ka. Maybe CK wants to be free of this perpetual torment of sameness and changes Quests, instead seeking to destroy the Tower so that he might be finally free? And of course once one begins the hating, it eats away at the heart, removing the original motivations and leaving only the taint, and CK becomes the antagonist we come to know and love(hate)?

    Thoughts, disagreements, anyone?

  20. #45
    Gunslinger Apprentice BeDaN is on a distinguished road BeDaN's Avatar

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    First off excellent post Gantoad. I think the idea of there being a higher being isn't far fetched, I'm not sure King ever wrote about the origins of CK, but then again I havn't read anywhere close to all his books. I'm really torn on this subject, personally I don't think he was a gunslinger. My personal opinion is he was a creature of intelligence who somehow escaped the prim or todash space , I do think that there are creatures of the prim and todash space who might very well make CK look very weak strength-wise. I would love to see a book on his origins and also what happened to Patrick during those lost years. . .but that's for another post other than this

  21. #46
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    One of Robin Furth's stories in the back of one of the Gunslinger Born comics does deal with the origins of the Crimson King.

    Spoilers ahead:
    Spoiler:
    Arthur Eld was seduced by a demon of the prim, the Crimson Queen. She was one of the powerful demons called, the Great Ones - not to be confused with the Great Old Ones, who are human - powerful demons usually in some kind of giant bug-like form. In her case her true form was (no prizes for guessing) a huge spider, but she took on the form of a beautiful woman dressed in red to seduce Arthur.

    The story is a lot more involved than that as you could imagine but in short, Arthur was found in the arms of a giant spider the next day and rescued by one of Eld's knights (he had the same surname as a prominent character in the series by the way.) The spider fled, wounded but impregnated, and months later gave birth to a hybrid son, The Crimson King.

    I won't spoil it further except to say, it's an interesting tale if you ever get to read it in that certain glass globes and a demonic wizard feature in the plot.


    Of course, whether or not you accept it depends on whether you allow for the comics being a legitimate continuation of the Dark Tower storyline, albeit a back-story continuation.) Either way, he was always destined to attempt to usurp power over that world (and probably others as well.), and likely the Tower as well.

    The idea that he has been looping as well, and his insanity was a result is a very interesting one, although (in light of above) I doubt is the case. I think his insanity is as much to do with the restoration of the beams, his advanced age and his origins
    Spoiler:
    bear in mind he is partly a creature of chaos, the prim being the substance of creation before the Tower brought it into order and formed the worlds. Partly coming from the prim, it's not too much of a stretch that he'd want to destroy that order and return to the Discordia from whence he came... at least in part.

  22. #47
    Gunslinger Apprentice Tik will become famous soon enough Tik's Avatar

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    An intresting topic and one, I feel, that could be answered by looking at the very nature of the Red King itself. To do that, we need to look at the information we get about the Red King from Insomnia, Black House, and the comics. I will be posting quotes about the Crimson King from these books so I will put my post within spoiler tags to be on the safe side.

    Spoiler:
    In Black House Parkus/Speedy states that the Crimson King is "pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King." Like Jack says, the Red King is in "Two places at once."

    The second manifestation is Los' the Red King, the creature Roland faced at the end of his quest. We know this because Los' was the one who dwelt in Le Casse Roi Russe, the court and castle of the King. As Jack says in Black House, the Crimson King "is presumably hanging out in his court (the part of him that isn't imprisoned in Speedys Dark Tower that is)."

    We learn of this manifestations origin from the comics (read Brainslingers post above about Los' birth).

    This raises some questions. Firstly, how does the Crimson King acquire a second manifstation? I believe Insomnia holds the answer....it states that:

    "The Crimson King jumps from body to body and generation to generation like a kid using stepping stones to cross a brook."

    This implies that the Red King hijacked the body of Arthur Elds and the Crimson Queens offspring, deeming it a useful body to have. This means that Los' the Crimson King is mearly an avatar. But who - and what - is the true Crimson King imprisioned in the Tower since the beginning of creation?

    Well, the comics state that "Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup." They go on to say:

    "...that which came after the bright light of Gan dragged like a heavy shadow. What bubbled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark,"

    If Gan is the White and the Purpose then the true Crimson King is the Outer Dark and the Random. This fits in with Rando Thoughtful, the Crimson Kings Minister of State, saying that "Big Red always was Gans crazy side." When Stephen King talks about how the two big cosmics (Gan and the Crimson King) were fighting over him, he mentions a name a few times that isn't repeated anywhere else. Heres an example of this:

    "I turned aside from Dis, I should be able to turn aside from Gan as well."

    So Dis seems to be the name of the true Crimson King pent in the Tower, the being whos Outer Dark and Random influence filters down from his place in the Tower throughout all the other levels of creation. And that, I feel, is why the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower....because his influence is limited so long as reality exists. In Black House Parkus states that "the King has been trying to destroy the Tower and set himself free for time out of mind. Forever, mayhap."

    Black House also goes on to say:

    "If he - or it - destroys the Tower, wont that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"

    "Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos...."

    So, basically, the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower so that his true self can rule the Discordia without any limitations to his power.


    Gantoads post mentions a pact with a higher being. I believe this is refering to Mia when she says that Los' has been "promised his own kingdom, where he'll rule forever, tasting his own special pleasures." She goes on to say that she doesn't know who made such a promise, that maybe "this is only what he has promised himself."

    To me, this sounds like the true tower pent Crimson King (Dis) promising things to the weaker second manifestation of the Crimson King (Los'). In essence, he has promised himself these things.

  23. #48
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    To me, this sounds like the true tower pent Crimson King (Dis) promising things to the weaker second manifestation of the Crimson King (Los'). In essence, he has promised himself these things.
    That was a great post Tik and the end there is really insightful. I learn something new everyday and love the perspective.

  24. #49
    Citizen of Gilead Empath of the White is on a distinguished road Empath of the White's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tik View Post
    An intresting topic and one, I feel, that could be answered by looking at the very nature of the Red King itself. To do that, we need to look at the information we get about the Red King from Insomnia, Black House, and the comics. I will be posting quotes about the Crimson King from these books so I will put my post within spoiler tags to be on the safe side.

    Spoiler:
    In Black House Parkus/Speedy states that the Crimson King is "pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King." Like Jack says, the Red King is in "Two places at once."

    The second manifestation is Los' the Red King, the creature Roland faced at the end of his quest. We know this because Los' was the one who dwelt in Le Casse Roi Russe, the court and castle of the King. As Jack says in Black House, the Crimson King "is presumably hanging out in his court (the part of him that isn't imprisoned in Speedys Dark Tower that is)."

    We learn of this manifestations origin from the comics (read Brainslingers post above about Los' birth).

    This raises some questions. Firstly, how does the Crimson King acquire a second manifstation? I believe Insomnia holds the answer....it states that:

    "The Crimson King jumps from body to body and generation to generation like a kid using stepping stones to cross a brook."

    This implies that the Red King hijacked the body of Arthur Elds and the Crimson Queens offspring, deeming it a useful body to have. This means that Los' the Crimson King is mearly an avatar. But who - and what - is the true Crimson King imprisioned in the Tower since the beginning of creation?

    Well, the comics state that "Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup." They go on to say:

    "...that which came after the bright light of Gan dragged like a heavy shadow. What bubbled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark,"

    If Gan is the White and the Purpose then the true Crimson King is the Outer Dark and the Random. This fits in with Rando Thoughtful, the Crimson Kings Minister of State, saying that "Big Red always was Gans crazy side." When Stephen King talks about how the two big cosmics (Gan and the Crimson King) were fighting over him, he mentions a name a few times that isn't repeated anywhere else. Heres an example of this:

    "I turned aside from Dis, I should be able to turn aside from Gan as well."

    So Dis seems to be the name of the true Crimson King pent in the Tower, the being whos Outer Dark and Random influence filters down from his place in the Tower throughout all the other levels of creation. And that, I feel, is why the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower....because his influence is limited so long as reality exists. In Black House Parkus states that "the King has been trying to destroy the Tower and set himself free for time out of mind. Forever, mayhap."

    Black House also goes on to say:

    "If he - or it - destroys the Tower, wont that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"

    "Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos...."

    So, basically, the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower so that his true self can rule the Discordia without any limitations to his power.


    Gantoads post mentions a pact with a higher being. I believe this is refering to Mia when she says that Los' has been "promised his own kingdom, where he'll rule forever, tasting his own special pleasures." She goes on to say that she doesn't know who made such a promise, that maybe "this is only what he has promised himself."

    To me, this sounds like the true tower pent Crimson King (Dis) promising things to the weaker second manifestation of the Crimson King (Los'). In essence, he has promised himself these things.

    A very interesting theory. Going by this theory we could assume that the Crimson King's "true" form still sits near the top of the Tower?

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empath of the White View Post
    A very interesting theory. Going by this theory we could assume that
    Spoiler:
    the Crimson King's "true" form still sits at the top of the Tower?
    Spoiler:
    I'm not convinced he'd be at the very top (despite what the other books have stated.) as I think that is associated as the place of God. (I'm not sure that association is entirely correct either mind, as I think God/Gan (if they're the same, which again isn't certain) would permeate the entire Tower, not just the top.)

    The idea of the Crimson King being a dual entity does explain discrepancies between the books that's for sure. I'm not entirely convinced in that a) Black House stated that the King's physical presence was in the tower, which suggests the part that is elsewhere (i.e. in the forge of the king... or his castle) isn't physical. We of course know it is.

    He's certainly more than what you see though, hence Patrick's need to paint the King's eyes, the doorway to the soul, red to capture him properly.

    I had another theory, which got around the discrepancies and explained the painting part, but it's pretty confused in some ways.

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