The Crimson King *spoilers*

[Kes]

Thanks R of G...I shall pick some up and begin to feed my obsession again

[Matt]

Yep, the comics are worth it for sure. Just to see a visual of some of this stuff makes the cover price acceptable imo.

[Chap]

regarding the comics: as long as King has reviewed them and accepted the content - I consider them canon

[jayson]

But do we know for a fact that King reviews them or does he give Ms. Furth carte blanche to do what she will with the characters?

I've yet to see any confirmation anywhere that King reviews every last thing which appears in the comics.

Like I said, I think the decision of whether to accept them as canon rests with each of us individually (unless King ever says officially that they are or are not).

[obscurejude]

Again, canon means a "rod used for measuring." We judge the comics by the already established canon of the book series by the author.

:beats chest:

We must recover the nuances of the English language.

[Tik]

I replied to a similer topic a few months ago. I'll just copy and paste it here to see what you all think:

An intresting topic and one, I feel, that could be answered by looking at the very nature of the Red King itself. To do that, we need to look at the information we get about the Red King from Insomnia, Black House, and the comics. I will be posting quotes about the Crimson King from these books so I will put my post within spoiler tags to be on the safe side.

Spoiler:

In Black House Parkus/Speedy states that the Crimson King is "pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King." Like Jack says, the Red King is in "Two places at once."

The second manifestation is Los' the Red King, the creature Roland faced at the end of his quest. We know this because Los' was the one who dwelt in Le Casse Roi Russe, the court and castle of the King. As Jack says in Black House, the Crimson King "is presumably hanging out in his court (the part of him that isn't imprisoned in Speedys Dark Tower that is)."

We learn of this manifestations origin from the comics....that, basically, it was the result of a Great Old One (the Crimson Queen) raping Arthur Eld.

This raises some questions. Firstly, how does the Crimson King acquire a second manifstation? I believe Insomnia holds the answer....it states that:

"The Crimson King jumps from body to body and generation to generation like a kid using stepping stones to cross a brook."

This implies that the Red King hijacked the body of Arthur Elds and the Crimson Queens offspring, deeming it a useful body to have. This means that Los' the Crimson King is mearly an avatar. But who - and what - is the true Crimson King imprisioned in the Tower since the beginning of creation?

Well, the comics state that "Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup." They go on to say:

"...that which came after the bright light of Gan dragged like a heavy shadow. What bubbled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark,"

If Gan is the White and the Purpose then the true Crimson King is the Outer Dark and the Random. This fits in with Rando Thoughtful, the Crimson Kings Minister of State, saying that "Big Red always was Gans crazy side." When Stephen King talks about how the two big cosmics (Gan and the Crimson King) were fighting over him, he mentions a name a few times that isn't repeated anywhere else. Heres an example of this:

"I turned aside from Dis, I should be able to turn aside from Gan as well."

So Dis seems to be the name of the true Crimson King pent in the Tower, the being whos Outer Dark and Random influence filters down from his place in the Tower throughout all the other levels of creation. And that, I feel, is why the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower....because his influence is limited so long as reality exists. In Black House Parkus states that "the King has been trying to destroy the Tower and set himself free for time out of mind. Forever, mayhap."

Black House also goes on to say:

"If he - or it - destroys the Tower, wont that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"

"Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos...."

So, basically, the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower so that his true self can rule the Discordia without any limitations to his power.


The Dark Tower 7 mentions the Crimson Kings pact with a higher being. I'm refering to Mia when she says that Los' has been "promised his own kingdom, where he'll rule forever, tasting his own special pleasures." She goes on to say that she doesn't know who made such a promise, that maybe "this is only what he has promised himself."

To me, this sounds like the true tower pent Crimson King (Dis) promising things to the weaker second manifestation of the Crimson King (Los'). In essence, he has promised himself these things.

[Chap]

But do we know for a fact that King reviews them or does he give Ms. Furth carte blanche to do what she will with the characters?

I've yet to see any confirmation anywhere that King reviews every last thing which appears in the comics.

Like I said, I think the decision of whether to accept them as canon rests with each of us individually (unless King ever says officially that they are or are not).

I think I've read that everything goes through King before being published. That he has final say at least. Don't remember where I read it though

[Kes]

I replied to a similer topic a few months ago. I'll just copy and paste it here to see what you all think:

An intresting topic and one, I feel, that could be answered by looking at the very nature of the Red King itself. To do that, we need to look at the information we get about the Red King from Insomnia, Black House, and the comics. I will be posting quotes about the Crimson King from these books so I will put my post within spoiler tags to be on the safe side.

Spoiler:

In Black House Parkus/Speedy states that the Crimson King is "pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King." Like Jack says, the Red King is in "Two places at once."

The second manifestation is Los' the Red King, the creature Roland faced at the end of his quest. We know this because Los' was the one who dwelt in Le Casse Roi Russe, the court and castle of the King. As Jack says in Black House, the Crimson King "is presumably hanging out in his court (the part of him that isn't imprisoned in Speedys Dark Tower that is)."

We learn of this manifestations origin from the comics....that, basically, it was the result of a Great Old One (the Crimson Queen) raping Arthur Eld.

This raises some questions. Firstly, how does the Crimson King acquire a second manifstation? I believe Insomnia holds the answer....it states that:

"The Crimson King jumps from body to body and generation to generation like a kid using stepping stones to cross a brook."

This implies that the Red King hijacked the body of Arthur Elds and the Crimson Queens offspring, deeming it a useful body to have. This means that Los' the Crimson King is mearly an avatar. But who - and what - is the true Crimson King imprisioned in the Tower since the beginning of creation?

Well, the comics state that "Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup." They go on to say:

"...that which came after the bright light of Gan dragged like a heavy shadow. What bubbled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark,"

If Gan is the White and the Purpose then the true Crimson King is the Outer Dark and the Random. This fits in with Rando Thoughtful, the Crimson Kings Minister of State, saying that "Big Red always was Gans crazy side." When Stephen King talks about how the two big cosmics (Gan and the Crimson King) were fighting over him, he mentions a name a few times that isn't repeated anywhere else. Heres an example of this:

"I turned aside from Dis, I should be able to turn aside from Gan as well."

So Dis seems to be the name of the true Crimson King pent in the Tower, the being whos Outer Dark and Random influence filters down from his place in the Tower throughout all the other levels of creation. And that, I feel, is why the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower....because his influence is limited so long as reality exists. In Black House Parkus states that "the King has been trying to destroy the Tower and set himself free for time out of mind. Forever, mayhap."

Black House also goes on to say:

"If he - or it - destroys the Tower, wont that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"

"Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos...."

So, basically, the Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower so that his true self can rule the Discordia without any limitations to his power.


The Dark Tower 7 mentions the Crimson Kings pact with a higher being. I'm refering to Mia when she says that Los' has been "promised his own kingdom, where he'll rule forever, tasting his own special pleasures." She goes on to say that she doesn't know who made such a promise, that maybe "this is only what he has promised himself."

To me, this sounds like the true tower pent Crimson King (Dis) promising things to the weaker second manifestation of the Crimson King (Los'). In essence, he has promised himself these things.

Thank you for this!

It does answer a LOT of my questions. I'm in the process of rereading Insomnia which I read and loved a long time ago but read not having touched a Dark Tower book, so with no frame of reference didn't hold onto much of the DT stuff that was in it.

I don't think I've read Black House, though I loved the Talisman. I'm going to read that next.

I think what satisfies me the most about what you've written is there is now a connection between Roland and CK (both descendents of Arthur Eld) that makes sense to me, outside of the "twinner" notion.

(I'm also getting started on the comics as well.)

[theyspunaweb]

Reading Insomnia right now...

Am I incorrect, I forgot why I wanted to read Insomnia, I thought it was about Patrick from the last book of the Dark Tower series...is that another book? Maybe the reason I ment to read Insomnia was to read about The Crimson King instead. If so, which book is about Patrick? Duma Key?

[jayson]

Both Patrick and the CK are in Insomnia. Perhaps you just haven't gotten to him yet. He's not really a main character, but he is there.

[theyspunaweb]

Yeah sorry for not just going straight to the Insomnia thread...I found it after posting this in there but I was trying to avoid spoilers.

[jayson]

Yeah, it's best to avoid book-specific threads until you've read the books lest something be spoiled for you.

[Darkthoughts]

Jayson, yes - King does oversee everything. There's like a transcript of a comic con interview in one of the Gunslinger Born comics, where they give an account of one of the writing sessions at which King is present

Hey Kes! Welcome

I've moved and merged your thread to here, because we can have more specific character discussion in this section

[Kes]

Excellent! Thanks I was wondering and thought, "Hey? I have a poll? How did that happen? LOL".

[Letti]

I have given a new option to the poll. I have missed it from the beginning I hope you don't mind. If anyone would like to change their pick to that let me know and I'll change it.

[jayson]

Thanks Letti, I finally feel there is an option I can vote for. I always believed him to be a villain but never attributed it to insanity.

[Kes]

My jury is going to remain out until I've finished re-reading Insomnia...

[The King of Kings]

He didn't become crazy until close to the end of his "life" though, right? He's a creature of chaos. His "alignment" is pretty self explanatory is it not?

[Kes]

He didn't become crazy until close to the end of his "life" though, right? He's a creature of chaos. His "alignment" is pretty self explanatory is it not?

Well, if you read what another poster in this thread wrote garnered from Insomnia and the comics...it would lead one to believe that he was a creature of chaos all along...

Insane? I guess it depends on ones perspective and if you give credence to a greater/lesser emanation of CK.

[The King of Kings]

He didn't become crazy until close to the end of his "life" though, right? He's a creature of chaos. His "alignment" is pretty self explanatory is it not?

Well, if you read what another poster in this thread wrote garnered from Insomnia and the comics...it would lead one to believe that he was a creature of chaos all along...

Insane? I guess it depends on ones perspective and if you give credence to a greater/lesser emanation of CK.

Strictly based off of the books though, didn't we learn that CK was just a evil guy until he was close to the end of his life and then he started going nuts.

[Kes]

He didn't become crazy until close to the end of his "life" though, right? He's a creature of chaos. His "alignment" is pretty self explanatory is it not?

Well, if you read what another poster in this thread wrote garnered from Insomnia and the comics...it would lead one to believe that he was a creature of chaos all along...

Insane? I guess it depends on ones perspective and if you give credence to a greater/lesser emanation of CK.

Strictly based off of the books though, didn't we learn that CK was just a evil guy until he was close to the end of his life and then he started going nuts.

I don't think they ever say...and it seems that he has as much of a "normal" life as our friend Roland or Walter O'Dim. The notion seems to be that he is eternal in some way, and perhaps always was...

Remember...

Spoiler:

Random Thoughtful tells us that he's KILLED himself and yet still lives, so can't be really killed. He's now not only insane but some sort of undead creature. Someone capable of swallowing and gutting themselves with a sharpened spoon and remaining animated strikes me as someone who wasn't exactly a regular "guy" to begin with crazy or not. Let's not forget he was also Mordred's father...so how did THAT happened if it wasn't something come from CK and what he always was?

[Mai]

Opinion. Where did Stephen King get the term The Crimson King?? Just wanting your opinion please.

[ICry4Oy]

Not sure where King got it but the first thing I thought of was the group King Crimson and their album In The Court Of The Crimson King. I did a lot of ...uuuh....stuff while listening to that way back in the day.

[flaggwalkstheline]

I'm pretty sure he was inspired by robert fripps' old band king crimson

[Rcampebll]

yea im pretty sure thats it king is sorta the rocker type and all