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Thread: Dead people in todash

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Default Dead people in todash

    When Roland and his ka-tet went to todash they saw dead people there. I am sure you remember Susannah and Oy noticed them first...

    I am simply interested in your thoughts and the logic you see behind their existance.
    How did they get there? I mean do they walk around us all the time but we cannot notice them or they could be there because Roland and his friends opened some gate or door... were they just lost visitors?... did they have to leave our world when the ka-tet had to go or they could stay? We know they heard the unbearably beautiful sound of the kammen.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    those were the "vagrant dead" of whom my understanding was that they were people that died so suddenly that they don't yet realize that they are dead. i think it's said that eventually most of them realize they are dead and move on, but i guess some could wander forever. also, i think they are there all the time, but the tet can see them bc they are todash, but regular people in that world don't see them though they may sense them.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    But they were many times in todash but that was the only time they saw them (and they saw 3!!!)... do I remember well? I am rereading Wolves now so I might be wrong.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    that was the only time i recall them seeing any. i think it's an idea king had that he wanted to get in there, but it wasn't that crucial so he threw it into that one scene but didn't feel he needed to keep telling us about them. i guess the other times they went todash they could prob see the vags too, but we just aren't told about it.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Ahh I see. They didn't come with todash they had been here before as well.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    right, they were there all along but the people there couldn't see them, only the tet could because the tet was todash

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    That was my understanding of the vagrant dead as well. They are probably always wandering around in todash-land and the tet saw them cuz they were todash. It wasn't necessary to mention the vagrant dead every time todash was mentioned.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Maybe someone can help me out since we keep dancing around it in here. Are the vagrant dead eventually heading toward infinite todash and not the clearing at the end of the path? I mean, they hear the kammen and they can only be seen while their viewers are in the todash state. What is the difference between the vagrant dead afterlife and everyone else besides the fact that they don't know they are dead yet? I'll take your answer off the air.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Maybe someone can help me out since we keep dancing around it in here. Are the vagrant dead eventually heading toward infinite todash and not the clearing at the end of the path? I mean, they hear the kammen and they can only be seen while their viewers are in the todash state. What is the difference between the vagrant dead afterlife and everyone else besides the fact that they don't know they are dead yet? I'll take your answer off the air.
    It seems to me, the vagrant dead are stuck inbetween worlds, which is the todash darkness.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    CK, I was thinking of the darkness that the tet talks about in regards to being lost while traveling between the worlds. That's the reason they hold hands. The darkness that one of the doors underneath Discordia leads to. The darkness that contains monsters unspeakable, to which the Crimson King sent his enemies. Is this where the vagrant dead are heading?

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    Umm, yes Obscure, thats what I meant. Its that place.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Okay, if they are in that darkness, then how are they present in New York. I'm not trying to be obscure.

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    I don't think the vagrant dead are in the todash darkness between worlds. Neither are most of them going there (although some unfortunate souls might ). Where, they do go though... I guess it's the place where everyone else goes, be it heaven, hell, the clearing at the end of the path or other worlds than these.

    They're detectable by people who have gone todash, like the ka-tet when they went to visit the rose, and Father Calahan in his ramblings. They are todash in that they are on another plane of existence, imperceptible to most people, except in a subconscious way (hence people moving aside for them etc.) But that's not the same as being in the todash space between worlds, although I'm sure they're sensitive to it on some level.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    waits for CK to fill in the gaps

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    Kingslayer John Blaze is a jewel in the rough John Blaze is a jewel in the rough John Blaze is a jewel in the rough John Blaze's Avatar

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    But wait. When they went "Todash" to the lot of the Rose, weren't they really inside Black Number 13? That's why everything was tinted dark, right? So they weren't really in the Todash Darkness, although I believe they might have passed thru there.
    "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlaze View Post
    But wait. When they went "Todash" to the lot of the Rose, weren't they really inside Black Number 13? That's why everything was tinted dark, right? So they weren't really in the Todash Darkness, although I believe they might have passed thru there.
    That's an interesting point John. But what about the fact that they could see the vagrant dead? If Black 13 is representative of the eternal outer darkness, then perhaps that means that the vagrant are damned if they are only seen as a result of Black 13. Damn, this thread is confusing me.

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    you and me both, bud.
    "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Damn, this thread is confusing me.
    Oh how happy I am to see it.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I'm willing to endure this precariousness for your sake anytime Letti.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    *smiles* Thank you. I really love to see if a thread becomes interesting or confusing for others. It means I am not alone and it was worth to open it.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    i don't know that i think the vagrant dead are damned to todash darkness forever. think about who we saw as todash dead. surely the little girl who was in the car accident was not eternally damned to darkness, right? we see through the "deaths" of jake and father callahan that death is a door to somewhere else. i think these folks just have other doors to go through, they just haven't gotten that far yet [perhaps it takes awhile longer without Walter to just put you in your next place like Jake or Callahan had]. as for #13, i don't think they travelled within it, just bc of it. it sent them todash but i don't think it sent them inside of itself [the thing was asleep when this happened]. the blackness was a sign that 13 was involved but i don't think it did to them what the grapefruit did to roland

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    I think there are varying degrees of 'todash', both of which mean you're inbetween worlds, the one when they were in New York was where they were still in NY but not all the way. You see the mobsters sense SOMETHING is in the room with them, just like folk feel the vagrant dead or what are commonly just called ghosts. Then there is the way out in the darkness todash where the demons of the Prim swim.
    Hope this helps.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    makes sense to me matthew

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    damn Allhail, this is the first time I've seen you do serious posts, in a row.
    "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Its the blue moon.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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