Buyers obligation to inform seller of substantial below market price

[herbertwest]

I personally tend to think that it's the seller's responsability to do some research about the "value" of the item that he sells.
If he sell something at a lower price than its "value" (which can depend of many factors, for instance someone's ability to market properly an item or reach the 'right' buyers) but is still happy to do the sell, where is the harm? Seems like a win-win situation.

On the other side : how many people managed to buy a signed "If It Bleeds" for $35, bitched that it was slightly damaged, but flipped the book for over 500? Shouldn't they have sold it for a more "reasonable" price then?

If it bleeds is not a fair comparison as bookstore1 was likely told at what price to sell the books.

Agreed.

Besides, I have the theory that Bookstore1 always keeps some signed copies to sell for a higher value later on. They did it with Revival in 2015.

That could explain why King mentionned 500 copies, although he didnt explicitly said he was signing 500 copies

[herbertwest]

That leads me to another question : the thread is titled "to inform seller of substantial below market price".
What is the definition of substantial?

of considerable importance, size, or worth.

I know the word, it's almost the same in french, but that doesnt really help me trying to understanding the question of the thread.

Is something 500% cheaper (let's say 30$ instead of $150) being part of the equation, or does it have to be 500? 1000? 5000?
What about finding something 0.50 while it's worth 30? (which means a 60 times value)

[Randall Flagg]

Substantial doesn't mean %. It means worth.

[herbertwest]

Which also depends of each of us.

For me, 500 may seem a lot.
For others, that may seem like peanuts.

[Hunchback Jack]

I would think “substantial“ means “enough that you would question whether the seller is aware of the true value of the item they are selling“.

If an item is priced close enough to market value that you can assume the seller has “Priced it to sell“, then I think that’s a different situation. It’s when the item is priced so low that it is clear the seller doesn’t know what they have that is this situation, I think. The significant point is the sellers ignorance, not the price differential itself.

[George at C-Springs]

What if you steal a murderer who killed a politician?

Praise or damnation ... depends on the politician.

[Rahfa]

Years ago, I bought a Drawing/Three first edition for $50 - what arrived was a signed "Author's Edition" without the slipcase. Obviously I wasn't going to email somebody and tell them I was going to send more money when they couldn't be bothered to literally open the book's cover and see what they had.

In another case, a copy of New Lt's Rap was listed on Abebooks for $250 - which was obviously a ridiculous price. I offered $350, and told him he had undervalued it - that should have been a clue that maybe it was worth a little more than the ask. Deal was completed at $350. I also knew that people would probably to buy it at $250 and I didn't want to be in line - I knew I could beat a "normal" offer.

I bought an s/l of The Stand for $1000 - but that's certainly not a bargain. Yeah, I sold it for $2500, but still...

So, long story short is I did tell the New Lt's Rap guy that he had made a mistake, and made a higher offer, but I wasn't going to bid against myself either.

I don't think there's any obligation to volunteer a bad price anymore than I have much patience for people who complain about auctions/sales too high on the other end.

[tippy4]

Welcome back Nathan...been almost a year since your last post....good to see you.

[TnTzDad]

Earlier this week I made light of a possible sale that could be an amazing deal. It was...deal of the decade amazing. While I seriously considered telling the story, I'm glad I didn't. I learned the seller found out about what he lost out on. In the three days it took to receive my book I never heard a word from him. About half an hour after I got it, I saw an email from him on my phone pop-up, figuring he was tracking it. I didn't expect to be cursed out, but I did expect something along the lines of how good I must feel. Instead, he was as cordial as he was before. He emailed to ask me for advice on selling his non-King books. With the way he handled this, I can only assume he would side with those of us who say no, it's not the buyer's responsibility to enlighten the seller. Yes, he's very enlightened now, understandably over-cautious and turning down offers that some think are perfectly reasonable. IMHO, the seller is a class act. I wouldn't be asking me for favors.

[Kingfan24]

After reading all these comments, my Nephew will be getting a schooling this weekend on King collecting! I am afraid he will be taken advantaged by unscrupulous book dealers/collectors. If you are interested, John Grisham wrote two books on this.
Camino Island and Camino Winds. Easy fun reading

Glenn, just for interest sake... you would not have bought that Slinger? I know you need one.... and is a big want for you. Are you stating that given that chance at the $2000 price point you would NOT have bought it but rather informed him that it is too low a price?

I'm moving this topic, since it's more of a dialogue topic than auction revalation. Is it unethical to knowingly play along by showing a semi-interest in a "pretty good book", and then pay, say, less than 1/4 the value of a truly sought after gem? Would it matter if that seller were doing so to pay his rent in light of current circumstances, or maybe disregarded if an unwise retired chemist were selling some random books? I ask because I'm struggling with what I just did...but I still did it. I just made the deal of the decade, which I'll reveal later this week when it arrives. (RF, you'll be eating crow on this one for that payment plan. 8))

This comment truly disturbs me if you really did this to the guy selling the gunslinger. You played along and then knowingly paid what you did. I know what you paid and it's pretty sad for the seller. You say you struggle with what you did, but I don't think you really struggled all that much if you played games with the guy. The poll on this thread just confirms what I already figured about the collecting community itself.

[TnTzDad]

I have no problem forwarding the email correspondence betwen myself and the seller, showing I asked several questions regarding what number is was and, when told there was no number, stating I assumed it was signed based on his description. He advertised the book, with a clip describing a maroon book. He is a well-educated, licensed medical profesional, not a mentally challenged patron. He did not research nor acknowledge his own referenced clip or that of my questions. Nothing I did was malicious or misleading. He led, I followed, and made an investment. As stated above, that you did not acknowledge, he handled it like a gentleman, going so far as to ask me for assistance after the fact.

[bdwyer19]

You sound like you’re ok with what transpired. So why did you say you were struggling with your choice?

[herbertwest]

You sound like you’re ok with what transpired. So why did you say you were struggling with your choice?

I dont really know what we're talking about, but for instance, I would struggle with spending 2K even if I knew the book would actually 6k. Not that I don't have that money. But there are many factors to take into account if it was the case, including the tax to pay on a resell.

Anyway, it was my 2 (worthless) cents comment

[David Hawk]

Wow. Some people will go to any lengths to feel better about themselves. Your jealous, petty bull made one long-time member leave for much the same reason. Regardless of what TnTzDad posted here, and it may have been insensitive, he did do it right. No different than the poor soul that puts his paycheck in the slot machine, only for the next lucky person to hit it on the first pull, this guy made out and YOU CAN'T STAND IT.

"I have received a few emails. It looks like I sold you a numbered, signed copy of the Gunslinger. You posted it on darktower.org. You being an experience collector knew that the book was worth much more than I was asking. It would have been the right thing to do to give me a heads up, especially since you could tell that I was an inexperienced book seller. This was a “one off sale” for me. I am writing to you to appeal to your better qualities. What can we do about this? You made me out to be a fool in your posting.

Regards

Bill

Bill,

I will not entertain what was said on the forum, of which I'm no longer a member of. However, since you are entertaining input from other people, did you not tell another member that you sold it for $1,100 and were okay with it? That same member told you what it was worth yesterday and, yet, you reached out to me for further assistance to sell your other books.

Please review the email highlights below, which you included in the current email. I asked everything to bring its true nature to light, of which you did not acknowledge. You, furthermore, copied and pasted a note from The Collector that says "The cover boards are in maroon in color..." I also did not haggle to make you lower your price.

I feel everything was conducted as a formal business transaction, paid as such through Paypal and would hold up in a court of law. Therefore, I regret to inform you that I will not be making any further arrangements regarding the sale."

[Joe315]

Wow. Some people will go to any lengths to feel better about themselves. Your jealous, petty bull made one long-time member leave for much the same reason. Regardless of what TnTzDad posted here, and it may have been insensitive, he did do it right. No different than the poor soul that puts his paycheck in the slot machine, only for the next lucky person to hit it on the first pull, this guy made out and YOU CAN'T STAND IT.

"I have received a few emails. It looks like I sold you a numbered, signed copy of the Gunslinger. You posted it on darktower.org. You being an experience collector knew that the book was worth much more than I was asking. It would have been the right thing to do to give me a heads up, especially since you could tell that I was an inexperienced book seller. This was a “one off sale” for me. I am writing to you to appeal to your better qualities. What can we do about this? You made me out to be a fool in your posting.

Regards

Bill

Bill,

I will not entertain what was said on the forum, of which I'm no longer a member of. However, since you are entertaining input from other people, did you not tell another member that you sold it for $1,100 and were okay with it? That same member told you what it was worth yesterday and, yet, you reached out to me for further assistance to sell your other books.

Please review the email highlights below, which you included in the current email. I asked everything to bring its true nature to light, of which you did not acknowledge. You, furthermore, copied and pasted a note from The Collector that says "The cover boards are in maroon in color..." I also did not haggle to make you lower your price.

I feel everything was conducted as a formal business transaction, paid as such through Paypal and would hold up in a court of law. Therefore, I regret to inform you that I will not be making any further arrangements regarding the sale."

What is this correspondence from? Who is bill and who is he speaking with?

[Sai Sheb]

Wow. Some people will go to any lengths to feel better about themselves. Your jealous, petty bull made one long-time member leave for much the same reason. Regardless of what TnTzDad posted here, and it may have been insensitive, he did do it right. No different than the poor soul that puts his paycheck in the slot machine, only for the next lucky person to hit it on the first pull, this guy made out and YOU CAN'T STAND IT.

"I have received a few emails. It looks like I sold you a numbered, signed copy of the Gunslinger. You posted it on darktower.org. You being an experience collector knew that the book was worth much more than I was asking. It would have been the right thing to do to give me a heads up, especially since you could tell that I was an inexperienced book seller. This was a “one off sale” for me. I am writing to you to appeal to your better qualities. What can we do about this? You made me out to be a fool in your posting.

Regards

Bill

Bill,

I will not entertain what was said on the forum, of which I'm no longer a member of. However, since you are entertaining input from other people, did you not tell another member that you sold it for $1,100 and were okay with it? That same member told you what it was worth yesterday and, yet, you reached out to me for further assistance to sell your other books.

Please review the email highlights below, which you included in the current email. I asked everything to bring its true nature to light, of which you did not acknowledge. You, furthermore, copied and pasted a note from The Collector that says "The cover boards are in maroon in color..." I also did not haggle to make you lower your price.

I feel everything was conducted as a formal business transaction, paid as such through Paypal and would hold up in a court of law. Therefore, I regret to inform you that I will not be making any further arrangements regarding the sale."

What is this correspondence from? Who is bill and who is he speaking with?

Don't ask me, I'm lost... I only popped in for a pint of milk.

[David Hawk]

Since the rat won't step up I will. He, and I can't prove who, took TnTzDad's (a friend that referred me here and where I got the emaills from) posts and emailed them to Bill, the seller of that Gunslinger. TnTzDad NEVER mentioned Bill by name but the cry baby turned his side of the story around to make him feel like a fool. Yeah, TnTzDad should have kept his mouth shut. Bill isn't retarded. He's a friggin educated graduate! Did this same rat member email the eBay seller that sold that book for $2,000 telling him to go get more money??? I seriously doubt it. Show me a DOCUMENTED SALE of the value of a S/L Gunslinger! Those for sale at $6,000 have been there FOREVER! The ONLY one of record is the one at $2,000 from last week. The market rate is set by the buyer, and NO ONE is buying those books. Kingfan, not saying you did this..., if your truly disturbed and have a problem with "the community itself" why do you stay in the community. Rumor has it your in a habit of running members off. But don't let the door hit you...!

[Merlin1958]

[Rahfa]

Is the complaint that a s/l Gunslinger sold for $1100, and that was taking advantage of the seller?

Yes, $1100 is a bargain price for that book - I would say with minimal patience, it's going to sell for $2-3K, maybe a lot more at the right time and place. Is it worth $6K? Maybe if you're a seller with a solid rep, but I don't think Joe Shmoe gets that much (but I dunno, maybe).

But either way, $1100 is not chicken scratch - when you start paying $1K for something, that's real money whether it's a bargain price or not. And, a seller doesn't list/offer something for $1K if they don't have *some* idea what the item's worth, whether they've undervalued or not. That's not a seller's ignorance that some unscrupulous cad is taking advantage of, but maybe a lack of a seller's follow-through on researching a truer value.

If we're talking Grandma's garage sale and you find a s/l for $1.50 and don't say anything, yeah, that kind of makes you lame (buy the book, just don't brag about it). But spending $1000? I don't see how anybody got really taken advantage of here.

[T-Dogz_AK47]

Is the complaint that a s/l Gunslinger sold for $1100, and that was taking advantage of the seller?

Yes, $1100 is a bargain price for that book - I would say with minimal patience, it's going to sell for $2-3K, maybe a lot more at the right time and place. Is it worth $6K? Maybe if you're a seller with a solid rep, but I don't think Joe Shmoe gets that much (but I dunno, maybe).

But either way, $1100 is not chicken scratch - when you start paying $1K for something, that's real money whether it's a bargain price or not. And, a seller doesn't list/offer something for $1K if they don't have *some* idea what the item's worth, whether they've undervalued or not. That's not a seller's ignorance that some unscrupulous cad is taking advantage of, but maybe a lack of a seller's follow-through on researching a truer value.

If we're talking Grandma's garage sale and you find a s/l for $1.50 and don't say anything, yeah, that kind of makes you lame (buy the book, just don't brag about it). But spending $1000? I don't see how anybody got really taken advantage of here.

This. +1

[webstar1000]

What’s really shitty? Is that a member here took screenshots and tried to make the seller feel like shit for his sale. That is worse than buying the item itself for a great price. I find that disgusting and wrong on so many levels.

[Joe315]

Is the complaint that a s/l Gunslinger sold for $1100, and that was taking advantage of the seller?

Yes, $1100 is a bargain price for that book - I would say with minimal patience, it's going to sell for $2-3K, maybe a lot more at the right time and place. Is it worth $6K? Maybe if you're a seller with a solid rep, but I don't think Joe Shmoe gets that much (but I dunno, maybe).

But either way, $1100 is not chicken scratch - when you start paying $1K for something, that's real money whether it's a bargain price or not. And, a seller doesn't list/offer something for $1K if they don't have *some* idea what the item's worth, whether they've undervalued or not. That's not a seller's ignorance that some unscrupulous cad is taking advantage of, but maybe a lack of a seller's follow-through on researching a truer value.

If we're talking Grandma's garage sale and you find a s/l for $1.50 and don't say anything, yeah, that kind of makes you lame (buy the book, just don't brag about it). But spending $1000? I don't see how anybody got really taken advantage of here.

It takes very little time to do the research on a book, especially those of an author as popular as king. If a seller is too lazy to look at what they have and take the 5 minutes to research they’ll lose out. Same is true for a buyer (although a buyer has more protections so they could get their money back).

[David Hawk]

On TnTs behalf I will say he's one of the best guys I've ever worked with. He's an honest humble military vet that goes out of his way for anyone. But hehas removed himself from this to stay out of another war, even if it is one of words. I see some good sides to this place. There are lots of good resources and most here are good hearted and while I have no problem having a heated debate it's not how I want to go about collecting. No one should have to prove themselves worthy by paying full dollar in the eyes of the entitled for a collection they hold dear. From what he told me there are a number of what he called "flippers" but he bought these books as heirlooms for his kids. He told me the Gunslinger had been stored for 38 years. I wouldnt' expect to see it for another 50. I already said how crappy it is that someone cried about this behind the scene. Which of you will he do it to next? Take care...

[shaq]

Damn Merlin, i gotta spread more love around before i send you more reps!!

[Randall Flagg]

What’s really shitty? Is that a member here took screenshots and tried to make the seller feel like shit for his sale. That is worse than buying the item itself for a great price. I find that disgusting and wrong on so many levels.

What proof do you have of that? AFAIK, taking a screenshot of a public discussion is not against site rules. It may or may not be the right thing to do, but the posts are public.