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View Poll Results: Given the opportunity to buy a book from stranger at far below market value, do you:

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  • Buy the item and not say a word to the seller

    31 70.45%
  • Inform the seller they priced below value and agree on a more equitable price

    13 29.55%
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Thread: Buyers obligation to inform seller of substantial below market price

  1. #1
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    Default Buyers obligation to inform seller of substantial below market price

    What if any obligation (moral, ethical, soul, Karma etc.) does a buyer have to inform a seller that their price is substantially below market value?
    There are thousands of mitigating circumstances to the answer, yet a passionate but non-abrasive discussion is welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Flagg View Post
    ...a passionate but non-abrasive discussion is welcome.
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    Zero. Its the sellers responsibility to research what they are selling. Same goes for a buyer. If you get screwed that’s on you.

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    I'd say its just a matter of how well you can live with yourself and your decisions/actions. Some people have absolutely no trouble doing things that others consider wrong, immoral, or even illegal. That's a personal choice. It doesn't matter what I think or what you think ... it's what the individual thinks. This is why the world has thieves, murderers, politicians, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by George at C-Springs View Post
    thieves, murderers, politicians,
    what a triumvirate!
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    Quote Originally Posted by George at C-Springs View Post
    I'd say its just a matter of how well you can live with yourself and your decisions/actions. Some people have absolutely no trouble doing things that others consider wrong, immoral, or even illegal. That's a personal choice. It doesn't matter what I think or what you think ... it's what the individual thinks. This is why the world has thieves, murderers, politicians, etc.
    Well said. The world is made up of all kids of people. Some good, others not so good.

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    To clear the air, my comment in the previous thread was not meant to be conceited or malicious. I am, and will continue to be, in awe and thoroughly impressed by the stunning collections you all have. I just found it childishly difficult to contain my excitement.

    I believe a seller's lack of research and knowledge about what they're selling is on them. Unless there are aptitude issues in play that could be argued in a court of law, it's not stealing if it's being handed to you. The seller I bought from is a retired, well-educated professional. Wise in the respective field of work, not so of the book collection.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by George at C-Springs View Post
    This is why the world has thieves, murderers, politicians, etc.
    What if you steal a murderer who killed a politician?
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    I personally tend to think that it's the seller's responsability to do some research about the "value" of the item that he sells.
    If he sell something at a lower price than its "value" (which can depend of many factors, for instance someone's ability to market properly an item or reach the 'right' buyers) but is still happy to do the sell, where is the harm? Seems like a win-win situation.

    On the other side : how many people managed to buy a signed "If It Bleeds" for $35, bitched that it was slightly damaged, but flipped the book for over 500? Shouldn't they have sold it for a more "reasonable" price then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbertwest View Post
    I personally tend to think that it's the seller's responsability to do some research about the "value" of the item that he sells.
    If he sell something at a lower price than its "value" (which can depend of many factors, for instance someone's ability to market properly an item or reach the 'right' buyers) but is still happy to do the sell, where is the harm? Seems like a win-win situation.

    On the other side : how many people managed to buy a signed "If It Bleeds" for $35, bitched that it was slightly damaged, but flipped the book for over 500? Shouldn't they have sold it for a more "reasonable" price then?
    If it bleeds is not a fair comparison as bookstore1 was likely told at what price to sell the books.

  11. #11
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    Yes and no.

    Nobody forced flippers to sell it at such a higher price.
    They could have decided to sell it at let's say 5 times their cost, and that would still be about 500% margin or so

    That leads me to another question : the thread is titled "to inform seller of substantial below market price".
    What is the definition of substantial?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbertwest View Post
    Yes and no.

    Nobody forced flippers to sell it at such a higher price.
    They could have decided to sell it at let's say 5 times their cost, and that would still be about 500% margin or so

    That leads me to another question : the thread is titled "to inform seller of substantial below market price".
    What is the definition of substantial?
    I agree with you that no one forced the high price, but that’s not what is in question here. What’s in question is if you find an item that someone is selling well below market value, is it your duty to inform them that they are substantially undervaluing said item Flipping is another contentious issue in the community, but not what is in question here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Flagg View Post
    What if any obligation (moral, ethical, soul, Karma etc.) does a buyer have to inform a seller that their price is substantially below market value?
    There are thousands of mitigating circumstances to the answer, yet a passionate but non-abrasive discussion is welcome.
    I think this is an excellent question. Many, many times over the years I've bought books, magazines etc... at very reduced prices in comparison to what they were worth.
    I got a box of Cavaliers once for $5 that had 8 King's in it. I think if you are buying from a store, yard sale, flea market etc... it is up to the seller to know what they are selling.
    But, I think in a forum like this that is built on information, communication and trust, it is imperative that we maintain a "decorum" of integrity that anyone joining can trust that
    they are being treated fairly whether they are buying or selling. Just my 2 cents worth.

  14. #14
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    I think the bottom line is that there is no actual iron clad responsibility to inform, but one's personal feelings, which may involve ideals bigger than book collecting, may come into play.

    Any discussion really comes down to:
    - how much damage you imagine you might do to another by remaining silent
    - how much you care about that damage
    - how much damage you imagine you might do to your collection by forgoing a great deal
    - how much you care about that damage

    It (as do many things) boils down to how you think about yourself and others. You may view a "deal" differently if the seller was:
    A) an experienced professional who profits in the industry (the "should know better" type)
    B) someone like A, but with whom you have a personal relationship
    C) someone like A, but who is known for taking advantage of the uninformed and inexperienced while walking the fine line separating honesty from dishonesty
    D) a distressed seller fallen on hard times
    E) an enthusiastic but inexperienced newbie trying to get started in the industry who would benefit from your knowledge and who reminds you of a young you

    How you feel about you and your collecting may also play a role; you may feel:
    A) "I'll never get my hands on a lettered Regulators, ever, if I don't take this deal"
    B) "I'm comfortable where my collecting is at the moment; in a few years, I'll get there"
    C) "I'd have enough to buy this book if I hadn't gotten snookered a few years ago into giving something away like this seller is about to"
    D) "I've had a pretty lucky year - that car accident that totaled my car but left me unharmed, the unlikely scholarship that came through for my son - I don't need to take this deal; let me pay it forward and tell this seller what he/she has"

    At this point, we might as well debate ice cream flavors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Troy View Post
    I think the bottom line is that there is no actual iron clad responsibility to inform, but one's personal feelings, which may involve ideals bigger than book collecting, may come into play.

    Any discussion really comes down to:
    - how much damage you imagine you might do to another by remaining silent
    - how much you care about that damage
    - how much damage you imagine you might do to your collection by forgoing a great deal
    - how much you care about that damage

    It (as do many things) boils down to how you think about yourself and others. You may view a "deal" differently if the seller was:
    A) an experienced professional who profits in the industry (the "should know better" type)
    B) someone like A, but with whom you have a personal relationship
    C) someone like A, but who is known for taking advantage of the uninformed and inexperienced while walking the fine line separating honesty from dishonesty
    D) a distressed seller fallen on hard times
    E) an enthusiastic but inexperienced newbie trying to get started in the industry who would benefit from your knowledge and who reminds you of a young you

    How you feel about you and your collecting may also play a role; you may feel:
    A) "I'll never get my hands on a lettered Regulators, ever, if I don't take this deal"
    B) "I'm comfortable where my collecting is at the moment; in a few years, I'll get there"
    C) "I'd have enough to buy this book if I hadn't gotten snookered a few years ago into giving something away like this seller is about to"
    D) "I've had a pretty lucky year - that car accident that totaled my car but left me unharmed, the unlikely scholarship that came through for my son - I don't need to take this deal; let me pay it forward and tell this seller what he/she has"

    At this point, we might as well debate ice cream flavors.
    Very well said!

  16. #16
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    Setting the if it bleeds case aside, as I agree I think it’s a slightly different situation.

    I’m not sure I agree that the onus is all on the seller, and that only the buyer needs to be protected. If a seller overpriced a book with a fake or facsimile signature, thinking it was real, everyone would jump on them to correct the error, to protect buyers. Motivation being that buyers should not get ripped off by a sellers ignorance.

    And yet when a seller underprices an item through ignorance, it’s OK for a buyer to rip off the seller?

    I don’t know what the answer should be, but it seems wrong to me that in one situation, the seller is seen as being potentially dishonest for having an inaccurate description, whereas in the other, the buyer is seen as being lucky or clever for recognizing, and taking advantage of, an inaccurate description.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbertwest View Post
    That leads me to another question : the thread is titled "to inform seller of substantial below market price".
    What is the definition of substantial?

    of considerable importance, size, or worth.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunchback Jack View Post
    Setting the if it bleeds case aside, as I agree I think it’s a slightly different situation.

    I’m not sure I agree that the onus is all on the seller, and that only the buyer needs to be protected. If a seller overpriced a book with a fake or facsimile signature, thinking it was real, everyone would jump on them to correct the error, to protect buyers. Motivation being that buyers should not get ripped off by a sellers ignorance.

    And yet when a seller underprices an item through ignorance, it’s OK for a buyer to rip off the seller?

    I don’t know what the answer should be, but it seems wrong to me that in one situation, the seller is seen as being potentially dishonest for having an inaccurate description, whereas in the other, the buyer is seen as being lucky or clever for recognizing, and taking advantage of, an inaccurate description.
    Very well stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Troy View Post
    I think the bottom line is that there is no actual iron clad responsibility to inform, but one's personal feelings, which may involve ideals bigger than book collecting, may come into play.


    That pretty much sums it up for me. I feel like this would have been a question for an ethics test in school. If i recall, the criteria to evaluate was something like:

    Would I recommend doing the same thing to someone else?
    Would I be happy if someone did the same thing to me?
    Were the actions fair to all involved?
    Do my actions represent or involve dishonesty?
    Would I be proud if my child acted the same way?
    Would I want my actions posted publicly?
    Do my actions leave me with a clear conscience?

    No right or wrong answer(s), as long as you sleep with a clear conscience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfan24 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by herbertwest View Post
    Yes and no.

    Nobody forced flippers to sell it at such a higher price.
    They could have decided to sell it at let's say 5 times their cost, and that would still be about 500% margin or so

    That leads me to another question : the thread is titled "to inform seller of substantial below market price".
    What is the definition of substantial?
    I agree with you that no one forced the high price, but that’s not what is in question here. What’s in question is if you find an item that someone is selling well below market value, is it your duty to inform them that they are substantially undervaluing said item Flipping is another contentious issue in the community, but not what is in question here.
    Actually....someone did force flippers to sell at a higher price.....it was the buyers who were willing to pay that price.

    It's our fault. A few years back a member here sold me a a signed copy of Doctor Sleep. I bought it because I was pissed off I had come back from the Boulder event without a signed copy. I paid $350 for it and could not believe I had done so. But now because of books like The Outsider, Mr Mercedes, Elevation and If it Bleeds....$800 is the new norm. If we stopped buying at that price....sellers would lower their price eventually.

    Market value is what we make it.....and to some degree it is a matter of opinion.

    As to my position.....I do not comment on people's pricing. I find it to be in bad taste when someone tells me I am pricing something too high. Let them figure it out and they will lower their price if they want to. As far as if I am pricing something too low....if you are a fried of mine...please tell me....and I will tell you if you are a friend of mine....but if I don't know you.....and I see what I see as a very good price on something......I am going to buy it.

    When you go into the grocery store and they are selling Strawberries for $0.99 a basket, do you go to the manager and tell him he's selling them too cheap?
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    Circumstances would dictate to me. That and the size of the difference. Karma's a bitch boy's and girl's!!!

    That said generally speaking and all things being equal, buyer and seller beware.

    I know that's not a very precise answer, but that is how I would roll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfan24 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by herbertwest View Post
    I personally tend to think that it's the seller's responsability to do some research about the "value" of the item that he sells.
    If he sell something at a lower price than its "value" (which can depend of many factors, for instance someone's ability to market properly an item or reach the 'right' buyers) but is still happy to do the sell, where is the harm? Seems like a win-win situation.

    On the other side : how many people managed to buy a signed "If It Bleeds" for $35, bitched that it was slightly damaged, but flipped the book for over 500? Shouldn't they have sold it for a more "reasonable" price then?
    If it bleeds is not a fair comparison as bookstore1 was likely told at what price to sell the books.
    Agreed.

    Besides, I have the theory that Bookstore1 always keeps some signed copies to sell for a higher value later on. They did it with Revival in 2015.
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  23. #23
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    Poll added to topic. Poll is confidential.

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    I find this to be a fascinating topic as both a collector and a seller myself. I think HBJ already made this point, but if someone snags a SL 'Slinger for 2k, would he/she not be praised and thought to be extremely lucky? If someone buys a SL 'SLinger for 15k because it is the only one on the market and they just have to have it, would the seller not be thought to be price gouging? (certainly in some collecting groups he/she would be). Both of these situations (not necessarily with this book) happen all the time. This to me says a lot about the book collecting community, but also brings to question the idea: does altruism exist in capitalism? What would a buyer gain by notifying a seller of an underpriced book? What would a buyer gain by notifying a seller of an overpriced book? Does it go both ways? There certainly are some honest sellers who do not try to swindle unscrupulous buyers, and there are certainly many who do. But, I've never known a buyer to pass up a good deal.
    Brings to mind:
    Last edited by Frondz; 05-27-2020 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Added pic

  25. #25
    Gojo fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito seldom gets put on hold fernandito's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    Circumstances would dictate to me. That and the size of the difference. Karma's a bitch boy's and girl's!!!

    That said generally speaking and all things being equal, buyer and seller beware.

    I know that's not a very precise answer, but that is how I would roll.
    What Bill said^

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