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Thread: Roland: Enemy Of The White And Gan? *Spoilers for the whole series*

  1. #51
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G
    Jean again we essentially agree, we just have our own metaphors. to you a potential saint, to me a potential bodhisattva. i like to think of roland as the bodhisattva of infinite lead. he kills, it's what he does. what he needs to do is to accept it. it's his being, and in the moments he finds himself in, it's what needs to be done. that's all that can be asked of anyone is that they live in each moment bc that's where eternity is ["beyond" time as opposed to "after" time]. i'm getting rambly, but you always seem to get it.
    not as much metaphors as the angles of interpretations; could be pretty literal. The difference (Christian saint vs. bodhisattva of infinite lead) would of course explain why I want to see the personal quest of one man as finite and you as eternal.

    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude
    Jean, thanks for what you said. I've always thought that King has some Catholic leanings, but authorial intent is a beast that is sometimes better left alone. It seems that a lot of his religious characters are shady if they are protestant and rather virtuous if catholic. As I'm sure you are aware of, there is some really interesting dialog between Callahan and all the characters about religion; particularly between him and Jake, and him and Roland. I've always thought the scene where Jake is given last rights before storming the Dixie Pig was very potent (and touching).
    that point about authorial intent is one of my idees fixes... namely, that what author intended or meant or implied doesn't matter at all, it's only what the reader has to do with that counts; so my consistently Catholic interpretation of TDT isn't something I could think he meant, but something I, as a reader, see in what he wrote - or read into what he wrote, which wouldn't change the final outcome in the least. (although I agree, King does show some sympathy for Catholics; more than for some protestant denominations anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude
    I forgot one thing. Jean, while I agree to an extent about what you said concerning human agency, I do tend to see Gan as a harsh arbiter of things. I can't stop thinking about Roland crying out for mercy as he is pushed through the door at the end. While it could be argued that it is for the greater good, I still have problems with it. I really need to go to sleep. Good night folks.
    Free will vs. God's will - or, in other interpretations, fate or [any modification of] ka, - is a great subject! would love to take it up with you somewhere, but surely not in this thread? Frankly, I am not sure we're still on topic...

    (only one thing now: Jesus, too, prayed for the cup to be taken away from him)

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  2. #52
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    not as much metaphors as the angles of interpretations; could be pretty literal. The difference (Christian saint vs. bodhisattva of infinite lead) would of course explain why I want to see the personal quest of one man as finite and you as eternal.
    true, but again in it's all in the definition. remember, i attempted to previously define "eternity" as the existence between moments, beyond time as opposed to after time, so it can be seen as a finite quest as it does not exclude the possibility/probability of death. now in roland's case it seems that it may take awhile for his being to no longer exist within time, but still possible. like i said, in that case Gan could chose another to represent the White and balance out the Red.

  3. #53
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    right... I'm still trying to figure it out without turning a man into a myth

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  4. #54
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Jean, I'm not sure what the topic is for this thread (Brice kind of left it wide open). I would like to talk about human and divine agency as well. Is there a thread already, or should you start one?

    Jesus did cry for the cup to be taken in his humanity, but, "This Jesus whom you crucified according to the foreknowledge and predetermined plan of God..." (Acts 2:23)

    Jayson, I'd be interested to hear more about the buddhist parallels. Maybe the three of us should start a thread about Religious typologies in the series?

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Jayson, I'd be interested to hear more about the buddhist parallels. Maybe the three of us should start a thread about Religious typologies in the series?
    now you're on the trolley. start it, i'll be there [i won't be able to help myself but be there]

  6. #56
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    If it's a diversion from topic I'm fine with it. After all that guy who started this thread was pretty damn vague about what exactly this topic is and still hasn't offered much clarification. However, I'm sure it could make for an interesting topic on it's own also if y'all like.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

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    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  7. #57
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    I only wouldn't like to talk about everything at once at the same place, or it will be impossible to trace any point in the future

    obscurejude: just look around a little, I would be very interested to see what you got to say on all questions touched upon in those of our many discussion threads which you haven't yet visited.

    and - the divine in man often contradicts the human in man; you don't have to have dual nature for that

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  8. #58
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    I dunno... I kinda always figured that if Roland got the quest right he would end up taking over gan's place...

    Or maybe he is already part of the machine that fixes the towers and is just doing his job though he doesn't know it?

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Great questions Ryan. My thoughts are... assuming the Tower as the physical embodiment of Gan, Roland isn't necessarily "saving" Gan, more than he maintaining order and balance. White can't entirely replace Red, nor vice versa, but if one gets the upper hand and "controls" the Tower than things are out of balance. As the World Axis, the Tower must remain equidistant between polar opposites [white and red as order and chaos in this case]. You can't have one without the other, but neither should be allowed to dominate. By "saving" the Tower I mean banishing the CK and Mordred from getting control of it this time through the loop. It's my belief that Roland represents the White in this necessarily constant struggle and that is why he loops, bc balance is attained but needs to be constantly maintained. It is not permanent.

    So Roland is not an enemy of The White then. I love your arguments and thoughts on the loop but to me that says Roland is indeed a friend to the White and Gan.

    I love this thread.

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    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    So Roland is not an enemy of The White then. I love your arguments and thoughts on the loop but to me that says Roland is indeed a friend to the White and Gan.

    I love this thread.
    i agree with me too. i think roland is representative of the White.

  11. #61
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    In the context of The Story -

    Roland doesn't just champion The White. He is the Living Embodiement of it. He is like unto Jesus Christ/ Buddha/ Mohammed when it comes to the White. He is the White in Person.

  12. #62
    John F. Kennedy Stinga of A-Town is on a distinguished road Stinga of A-Town's Avatar

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    :?:

    So mayhap we see this all wrong from the get go.
    Ka is a wheel yes? We are beaten over the head with this the entire tale, and accept that the whole foreshadowing of Ka like a wheel is for Roland to eventually loop his journey again.- Well to have Ka come full circle - one would have to restart along time before Roland ever enters - back to the beginning and the prim. So what if all along it was the Red and the Crimson King who truly served the will of Ka, trying to bring Ka full circle in destroying all of everything so Ka could roll again. As it could stand now, though - Roland has become the thorn in Ka's side in its natural attempt to complete it cycle. With the constant Roland continuing to succeed in his quest - mayhap sending him back to the desert is all Ka can do to defend itself and its need to continue around to the true beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinga of A-Town View Post
    Well to have Ka come full circle - one would have to restart along time before Roland ever enters - back to the beginning and the prim. So what if all along it was the Red and the Crimson King who truly served the will of Ka, trying to bring Ka full circle in destroying all of everything so Ka could roll again.
    This is a first time I've heard this theory mentioned. Very, very interesting Stinga. A lot of folk don't like to think that Los' and his forces could have some kind of integral role in something greater than they understand, like Gan and the White has.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    John F. Kennedy Stinga of A-Town is on a distinguished road Stinga of A-Town's Avatar

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    Not many people are comfortable with death / loss /ect. Although it is seen naturaly everywhere. All things come full circle, death fuels life, life fuels death. And Ka like a wheel right? Well - the wheel in this tale is a bit flat on the bottom. But only on the bottom.

    - Not to trash Roland and his tet, I love the story, and all its characters (why else would I be here, right?) but one must look at the motives of both/all sides in order to fully see the picture. Balance in life needs both save and destroy, good / evil ect... One cannot choose a side without first looking at both.
    With such strong support and effort from the red, and such a slim chance from the white, it may be Ka's way of moving on.

  15. #65
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Ck, we've been mentioned things like this all along. Its called a "free will" theodicy. Again, redemption cannot transpire unless perfection is lost. Therefore, certain events are set in motion to make a fall transpire.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    *bump*

    This thread hasn't seen any love in awhile and I thought some of the newcomers might like it. Read it from the beginning.

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    Roland: Enemy Of The White And Gan? *Spoilers for the whole series*
    i'm sorry, but what?

  18. #68
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    Read the whole thread!

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    i can't i suffer from chronic DT thread laziness. I hear it's contagious

  20. #70
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Not for me. I read them all. Well, if you ain't gonna' read it why question it. Do you really think we're gonna' encourage you to be lazy by summarizing the thread for you? Anyhow, the title was kinda' a joke, but it was also intended to make you think.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Anyhow, the title was kinda' a joke, but it was also intended to make you think.
    how daer you! nobody mekes me think after June 13

  22. #72
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by razz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Anyhow, the title was kinda' a joke, but it was also intended to make you think.
    how daer you! nobody mekes me think after June 13
    Does anyone make you think at all?
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  23. #73
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    yeah, Crichton.

  24. #74
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Well then it's obvious I don't.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    I’ll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  25. #75
    - razz is a jewel in the rough razz is a jewel in the rough razz is a jewel in the rough razz is a jewel in the rough

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    funny, that pinks haired thing sitting on top of my computer said the same thing. sorry, i have to grab my medication. back in a few

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