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Thread: The Institute Spoilers: Be aware!!!!!!!!

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunchback Jack View Post
    Well, to get into major spoilers ...

    Spoiler:
    ... although the Institute we were aware of was destroyed, there's nothing to indicate that any of the other Institute "branches" aren't still snapping up kids and killing people based on the predictions of their supposedly clairvoyant people.

    Hmmmm, it seemed pretty clear to me that ALL the global facilities were similarly destroyed/disabled as the facility destroyed by our heroes was able to be done for utilizing all their collective powers across the globe. It would seem logical thqt the other facilities were all destroyed and the inhabitants set free. That was my take on it anyway.

    I was also rather disappointed that no one at the Institute got their comeuppance. I mean, sure, a bunch of them died, but so did a lot of the kids that Luke was trying to save. Not much of a victory for the good guys in this one.

    A victory all around for the "good guys" and internationally to boot, IMHO anyway. I guess he could have described individual tortures and eventual deaths if you're that into those things, yeah. However, they met their fates in the end. Besides, if they did really "get into it" with select characters that would make them no better than their captors I suppose.


    HBJ
    Okay, so I responded in your spoiler

    WB

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunchback Jack View Post
    Well, to get into major spoilers ...

    Spoiler:
    ... although the Institute we were aware of was destroyed, there's nothing to indicate that any of the other Institute "branches" aren't still snapping up kids and killing people based on the predictions of their supposedly clairvoyant people.

    Hmmmm, it seemed pretty clear to me that ALL the global facilities were similarly destroyed/disabled as the facility destroyed by our heroes was able to be done for utilizing all their collective powers across the globe. It would seem logical thqt the other facilities were all destroyed and the inhabitants set free. That was my take on it anyway.

    If that's the case, then that's better at least. I don't recall mention of Avery and co returning the assistance that the other Institutes gave to them, though. And I got the impression form the Lisping Man that the future-tellers were still alive and well. Perhaps I should reread those sections, though

    I was also rather disappointed that no one at the Institute got their comeuppance. I mean, sure, a bunch of them died, but so did a lot of the kids that Luke was trying to save. Not much of a victory for the good guys in this one.

    A victory all around for the "good guys" and internationally to boot, IMHO anyway. I guess he could have described individual tortures and eventual deaths if you're that into those things, yeah. However, they met their fates in the end. Besides, if they did really "get into it" with select characters that would make them no better than their captors I suppose.

    I didn't mean THAT kind of comeuppance. Just getting arrested and brought to justice would have been enough for me.


    HBJ
    Okay, so I responded in your spoiler

    WB
    Also responded in the spoiler.

    HBJ
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunchback Jack View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunchback Jack View Post
    Well, to get into major spoilers ...

    Spoiler:
    ... although the Institute we were aware of was destroyed, there's nothing to indicate that any of the other Institute "branches" aren't still snapping up kids and killing people based on the predictions of their supposedly clairvoyant people.

    Hmmmm, it seemed pretty clear to me that ALL the global facilities were similarly destroyed/disabled as the facility destroyed by our heroes was able to be done for utilizing all their collective powers across the globe. It would seem logical thqt the other facilities were all destroyed and the inhabitants set free. That was my take on it anyway.

    If that's the case, then that's better at least. I don't recall mention of Avery and co returning the assistance that the other Institutes gave to them, though. And I got the impression form the Lisping Man that the future-tellers were still alive and well. Perhaps I should reread those sections, though

    I was also rather disappointed that no one at the Institute got their comeuppance. I mean, sure, a bunch of them died, but so did a lot of the kids that Luke was trying to save. Not much of a victory for the good guys in this one.

    A victory all around for the "good guys" and internationally to boot, IMHO anyway. I guess he could have described individual tortures and eventual deaths if you're that into those things, yeah. However, they met their fates in the end. Besides, if they did really "get into it" with select characters that would make them no better than their captors I suppose.

    I didn't mean THAT kind of comeuppance. Just getting arrested and brought to justice would have been enough for me.


    HBJ
    Okay, so I responded in your spoiler

    WB
    Also responded in the spoiler.

    HBJ
    Fair points indeed.With regard to issue (A) I just thought it was a logical next step, but maybe I assumed too much. As far as issue (B) Oh I see what you mean, but if that had happened perhaps the ensuing press and trials would have done more harm than good in the end? Just spitballing there.

    WB


    Spoiler:
    BTW, no need for spoiler tags here. The thread name bears "Spoilers Be Aware". Just FYI for the future, my friend!!

  4. #29
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    Re: Spoilers. Fair enough. It was just such a massive ending spoiler that I thought I should be cautious, nonetheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunchback Jack View Post
    Re: Spoilers. Fair enough. It was just such a massive ending spoiler that I thought I should be cautious, nonetheless.

    HBJ

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    Loved the book but I did want a little revenge/blood at the end.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrell View Post
    Loved the book but I did want a little revenge/blood at the end.
    Well they did get an entire building dropped on everyone, but yeah I guess there could have been a little more graphic revenge for some key character's at the end.

  8. #33
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    I finished the book yesterday.
    I am lousy at detailed analyses, because I don't consider myself a critic, I am just a reader.
    I liked the book a lot.
    To nitpick, what I don't like are King's abbreviations, which to me sound silly, probably because I have never heard people use them. This doesn't mean people don't use them, it's just that I personally have never heard these terms used:

    uni for uniform
    caff for cafeteria
    walkie instead of walkie talkie (this really bugs me, can't say why)
    and so on and so forth

    And a lot of King's dialog between characters just sounds phony to me. Do people really talk that way, with the 'high fives' and all that stuff? Not in my personal experience, which I admit, is limited. It seems these are more movie and TV cliches than real life. I think that's why The PASSAGE trilogy resonated so well with me, the conversations between the characters seemed real, like normal people in extraordinary situations would actually talk and interact with each other. The same goes for 95% of Richard Matheson's work.

    Just my 2 cents worth, which probably is not even worth a quarter cent. Give me a high five!
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ur2ndbiggestfan View Post
    I finished the book yesterday.
    I am lousy at detailed analyses, because I don't consider myself a critic, I am just a reader.
    I liked the book a lot.
    To nitpick, what I don't like are King's abbreviations, which to me sound silly, probably because I have never heard people use them. This doesn't mean people don't use them, it's just that I personally have never heard these terms used:

    uni for uniform
    caff for cafeteria
    walkie instead of walkie talkie (this really bugs me, can't say why)
    and so on and so forth

    And a lot of King's dialog between characters just sounds phony to me. Do people really talk that way, with the 'high fives' and all that stuff? Not in my personal experience, which I admit, is limited. It seems these are more movie and TV cliches than real life. I think that's why The PASSAGE trilogy resonated so well with me, the conversations between the characters seemed real, like normal people in extraordinary situations would actually talk and interact with each other. The same goes for 95% of Richard Matheson's work.

    Just my 2 cents worth, which probably is not even worth a quarter cent. Give me a high five!
    High five! Oops too slow! Gotta go!

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ur2ndbiggestfan View Post
    I finished the book yesterday.
    I am lousy at detailed analyses, because I don't consider myself a critic, I am just a reader.
    I liked the book a lot.
    To nitpick, what I don't like are King's abbreviations, which to me sound silly, probably because I have never heard people use them. This doesn't mean people don't use them, it's just that I personally have never heard these terms used:

    uni for uniform
    caff for cafeteria
    walkie instead of walkie talkie (this really bugs me, can't say why)
    and so on and so forth

    And a lot of King's dialog between characters just sounds phony to me. Do people really talk that way, with the 'high fives' and all that stuff? Not in my personal experience, which I admit, is limited. It seems these are more movie and TV cliches than real life. I think that's why The PASSAGE trilogy resonated so well with me, the conversations between the characters seemed real, like normal people in extraordinary situations would actually talk and interact with each other. The same goes for 95% of Richard Matheson's work.

    Just my 2 cents worth, which probably is not even worth a quarter cent. Give me a high five!
    My guess is that because of King's success he has mostly led a sheltered existence for the past couple of decades that limits his contact with regular people. He is also an older guy who has certain stereotypes. His black characters, for example, are like something out of The Jeffersons. Some of this still works in book form but is downright embarrassing in movies. It is not how real people talk or act but in a book those kinds of simple stereotypes are effective - when not overly annoying - at character development for the reader as they play into behaviors that the masses can easily process.

  11. #36
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    Yup, that sounds about right!

    I fell right on my face trying to return that high five, by the way! Like, ouch!
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ur2ndbiggestfan View Post
    ...it's just that I personally have never heard these terms used:
    uni for uniform
    caff for cafeteria
    walkie instead of walkie talkie (this really bugs me, can't say why)
    and so on and so forth

    Don't dis da man on the walkie. They will hear it.
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    I finished the book 2 days after it came in, most in one sitting. I really liked it!

    But one thing I noticed in this story was that Stephen King still thinks it's the 50's. I mean, even if it's just a nightknocker job, it should pay more than 100$ a week. And I agree with Garrel, I would have also loved to see some more revenge near the end.

    The book didn't disappoint me or anything, but I was secretly hoping for some more Dark Tower references, I know there are a few here and there, but when I originally read the description, [SPOIL ] I thought this would be some sort of first experiment for the breakers. [/SPOIL]

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    One thing I didn't really get was how cruel the Institute was. Even taking into consideration that the children ultimately dying was inevitable, their general mindset was that the children were heroes sacrificing themselves for the greater good. So why not make the place more like Blue Heaven (which had far less benevolent intentions) which was a prison but more relaxed?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Picklemaniac View Post
    ...The book didn't disappoint me or anything, but I was secretly hoping for some more Dark Tower references, I know there are a few here and there, but when I originally read the description...

    I find that SK leaves a few breadcrumbs for us to follow, if we so wish, in his books (ie. DT, books, authors, music) without ever dumping the whole bag on us at one time as some authors do occasionally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    One thing I didn't really get was how cruel the Institute was. Even taking into consideration that the children ultimately dying was inevitable, their general mindset was that the children were heroes sacrificing themselves for the greater good. So why not make the place more like Blue Heaven (which had far less benevolent intentions) which was a prison but more relaxed?
    I think the general mindset was that the children were a resource to be used until they ran dry, at which point they were discarded.

    The children weren't there by choice, did not submit to the tests by choice, and ultimately didn't fulfill the Institute's purpose for them by choice. The difference between Blue Heaven and the Institute was that the administrators of the latter didn't feel the need to even try to gain the children's consent; rather, they dehumanized the children so that, in their minds, consent wasn't needed.

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    If they were treated like national treasures, the book would have been insufferably boring. Without conflict, there is no story, and therefore, no interest in reading further...to see what happens next!
    And to find out what the sweet, sweet revenge will be, served cold, hot, or lukewarm as the case may be.
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

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    Well you'd still have kids being kidnapped with their parents murdered plus the mystery of where the other kids are being taken to and what ultimate purpose the Institute has for them. The conflict would still be there.


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    Yes, that's true.
    I'm sure if there is intelligent life somewhere out there in the universe, they are wise enough to stay away from us.

    And the people bowed and prayed, to the cell phone god they made...

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    I mean, I get the parent killings and the slapping of kids (because some kids are resistant as hell) but the cruelness in the back half was so weird.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardX View Post
    His black characters, for example, are like something out of The Jeffersons. Some of this still works in book form but is downright embarrassing in movies. It is not how real people talk or act but in a book those kinds of simple stereotypes are effective - when not overly annoying - at character development for the reader as they play into behaviors that the masses can easily process.
    How was Kalisha (from the Institute) a stereotype?

    King struggled writing black characters early on in the beginning of his career but he has been upfront about that which is more than most old white men can say about it.


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  22. #47
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    Finally got around to reading this last month.

    As for tie-ins to other works, I prefer his novels be stand-alone, unless there's a genuine reason for it.

    Some responses inside the spoiler tags:

    Quote Originally Posted by shaq View Post
    I do have a couple of comments, and will put it in spoilers (even though the thread is marked spoiler alert!) that are discussion points, but trying not make them look like criticisms too much.

    Spoiler:
    3 - What I call 'The Hand of God' moment, which Mr King often uses in his stories. ie the corny moment in the story that takes me out of it totally, and makes me go wtf! In this case the floating building!! Shit man! Either King seriously cannot finish a story, or he does it on purpose now! Personally I do think he can finish his stories really well, but there are a few that have slightly exaggerated endings.

    I know what you mean by "Hand of God" moment, but anything sufficiently explained doesn't strike me as being one, and a building full of psychically amped children focused on destruction works for me as an explanation of a building temporarily lifting off the ground.

    4 - As a kid, my drama teacher used to hate it when he asked the kids to create an improv play, and they ultimately ended in scenes that degenerated into mass shoot outs, ie the kids resorted to running around shooting everything in sight with no further plot! This was done twice here near the end, one at the copshop, and at the institute.

    This is what violent confrontations involving armed groups look like; the people had guns, simple as that.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichardX View Post
    None of the characters in the book resonated. That was most surprising because character development is King's usual strength.
    Overall I liked The Institute, but I agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberGhostface View Post
    One thing I didn't really get was how cruel the Institute was. Even taking into consideration that the children ultimately dying was inevitable, their general mindset was that the children were heroes sacrificing themselves for the greater good.
    Although that picture (heroes) was painted, I don't for a minute believe that anyone working at the Institute viewed the children that way; they viewed them as tools, weapons, batteries - anything but fellow humans.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picklemaniac View Post
    I mean, I get the parent killings and the slapping of kids (because some kids are resistant as hell) but the cruelness in the back half was so weird.
    That was exactly what I found so relentlessly and horrifyingly true. History, alas, proves it: when some people have absolute power over other people, it necessarily brings about the worst in them. In nazi camps they didn't have to be cruel to their material, either. This attitude is a function of a) absolute power; b) establishment (the whole institute, its purpose, its methods) that by a person brought up in a largely humanistic society has to be perceived as deeply wrong, thus bringing about an inner conflict. The conflict can be resolved by either dropping out of the system, or, in case of staying there, of accelerating and exaggerating what one did previously. The guiltier you feel, the harder you get, and the tougher - the crueller - the less human - you are, the less access this guilt has to your consciousness.

    I loved the novel. The only problem I had with it was that the last part was not really written, but rather plotted; reading it was like looking through a synopsis, or jotted notes for another couple of volumes. I wish these volumes had been written instead.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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