May Nocturnal Readers Box

[Tommy]

The Mad Sweeney coin was cool too. Still use that one as a paperweight.

[Heather19]

So with all this discussion on licensing IP, I wonder what in the GBB box would need some IP licensing, and wonder if he got the permissions or not.

Here is a list of the items in the box, as described by NRB. (not including the books).

• A Custom -Dark Tower Inspired Bandana -- since it has the first line of the book on it, seems like it would need permissions
• A Castle Rock/Gwendy's Button Box Limited Edition Coin -- seems like this would need permission
• A Jordy Verrill Patch from Creepshow -- seems like it might need permission, but its debatable in my opinion
• An exclusive Firestarter Tea from the Jasmine Pearl Tea co. -- seams no permission should be needed
• Two Stickers, one of Carrie and a window decal of Pennywise -- seems like should require permission
• A Derry Maine Magnet -- since Derry is fictional town create by SK - should require permission
• An SK Bookmak or two by Jessica Featuring Molly aka "the Thing of Evil" -- don't know about this one, probablhy not?
• A Long Walk art print by Dan Charnley -- seems its vague enough to get by
• Constant Reader hard enamel pin -- don't know

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but I gave my opionions above. Just wondering what others thoughts are.

Does anyone have a picture of these items? I'm curious what everything looked like.

[Br!an]

Thanks Br!an, did you ever consider practicing law?

I have thought about it.

I have knowledge and experience with the law. I also have a logical mind.

[Br!an]

So with all this discussion on licensing IP, I wonder what in the GBB box would need some IP licensing, and wonder if he got the permissions or not.

Here is a list of the items in the box, as described by NRB. (not including the books).

• A Custom -Dark Tower Inspired Bandana -- since it has the first line of the book on it, seems like it would need permissions
• A Castle Rock/Gwendy's Button Box Limited Edition Coin -- seems like this would need permission
• A Jordy Verrill Patch from Creepshow -- seems like it might need permission, but its debatable in my opinion
• An exclusive Firestarter Tea from the Jasmine Pearl Tea co. -- seams no permission should be needed
• Two Stickers, one of Carrie and a window decal of Pennywise -- seems like should require permission
• A Derry Maine Magnet -- since Derry is fictional town create by SK - should require permission
• An SK Bookmak or two by Jessica Featuring Molly aka "the Thing of Evil" -- don't know about this one, probablhy not?
• A Long Walk art print by Dan Charnley -- seems its vague enough to get by
• Constant Reader hard enamel pin -- don't know

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but I gave my opionions above. Just wondering what others thoughts are.

Does anyone have a picture of these items? I'm curious what everything looked like.

I found everything except the enamel pin. I'll take some pics.

Looking at the items I do see possible copyright violations. Not for everything but there are some.

[Heather19]

Thanks!

[MLG]

So with all this discussion on licensing IP, I wonder what in the GBB box would need some IP licensing, and wonder if he got the permissions or not.

Here is a list of the items in the box, as described by NRB. (not including the books).

• A Custom -Dark Tower Inspired Bandana -- since it has the first line of the book on it, seems like it would need permissions
• A Castle Rock/Gwendy's Button Box Limited Edition Coin -- seems like this would need permission
• A Jordy Verrill Patch from Creepshow -- seems like it might need permission, but its debatable in my opinion
• An exclusive Firestarter Tea from the Jasmine Pearl Tea co. -- seams no permission should be needed
• Two Stickers, one of Carrie and a window decal of Pennywise -- seems like should require permission
• A Derry Maine Magnet -- since Derry is fictional town create by SK - should require permission
• An SK Bookmak or two by Jessica Featuring Molly aka "the Thing of Evil" -- don't know about this one, probablhy not?
• A Long Walk art print by Dan Charnley -- seems its vague enough to get by
• Constant Reader hard enamel pin -- don't know

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but I gave my opionions above. Just wondering what others thoughts are.

Does anyone have a picture of these items? I'm curious what everything looked like.

Here are the photos I posted when I received mine. https://forum.cemeterydance.com/show...lection/page63

[jsmcmullen92]

So with all this discussion on licensing IP, I wonder what in the GBB box would need some IP licensing, and wonder if he got the permissions or not.

Here is a list of the items in the box, as described by NRB. (not including the books).

• A Custom -Dark Tower Inspired Bandana -- since it has the first line of the book on it, seems like it would need permissions
• A Castle Rock/Gwendy's Button Box Limited Edition Coin -- seems like this would need permission
• A Jordy Verrill Patch from Creepshow -- seems like it might need permission, but its debatable in my opinion
• An exclusive Firestarter Tea from the Jasmine Pearl Tea co. -- seams no permission should be needed
• Two Stickers, one of Carrie and a window decal of Pennywise -- seems like should require permission
• A Derry Maine Magnet -- since Derry is fictional town create by SK - should require permission
• An SK Bookmak or two by Jessica Featuring Molly aka "the Thing of Evil" -- don't know about this one, probablhy not?
• A Long Walk art print by Dan Charnley -- seems its vague enough to get by
• Constant Reader hard enamel pin -- don't know

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but I gave my opionions above. Just wondering what others thoughts are.

Does anyone have a picture of these items? I'm curious what everything looked like.

I found everything except the enamel pin. I'll take some pics.

Looking at the items I do see possible copyright violations. Not for everything but there are some.

As for pin, it should require permission. It has Kings sig on it

[dnemec]

Christopher Payne from Jounalstone on FB:

"The Horror Bees - Nocturnal Reader's Box saga is getting more sordid as the days pass by. Six different publishers have now contacted me and informed me that Vincent did the same thing to them as he did to me. I'm the lucky winner that he owes the most to, but these other publishers are owed a lot of money as well.

As I add it up it appears that Vincent (The Horror Bees and The Nocturnal Readers Box) has stolen over $100k worth of merchandise so far this year. Not a small amount of money and worth telling your friends about. I would stay away from these two companies and my condolences to everyone that has been cheated by Vincent.

I'm not sure if or when a single individual has hurt the horror industry more than Vincent has. It will be a struggle for a lot of us to maintain the same level of service having had Vincent steal so much from us. I wish everyone luck in keeping things going. Vincent has truly impacted this genre in a very negative way."

It just keeps on going...

[Br!an]

For more info...TDT.org Copyright thread.



Copyright law is subjective. If a rights holder believes their rights have been infringed, whether or not they have, they have the right to protect their intellectual property. There is a concept called fair use. Vincent stated that he'd obtained rights for a couple of different items. I assume he did not obtain rights for the others. He would likely plead fair use. Bill Keene disagrees.

If my opinion is that there's infringement, that is based upon the assumption that no rights were obtained.

A Custom Dark Tower Inspired Bandana

This uses King's text and Whelan's KA symbol. Infringement.



A Castle Rock/Gwendy's Button Box Limited Edition Coin

This likely infringes Baldwin and/or CD.



A Jordy Verrill Patch from Creepshow

This is blatant infringement.



Copied from...



An exclusive Firestarter Tea from the Jasmine Pearl Tea co.

No infringement



Two Stickers, one of Carrie and a window decal of Pennywise

Carrie could infringe. Pennywise (?) does not.



A Derry Maine Magnet

Without the IT quote, I'd call this fair use.



An SK Bookmak or two by Jessica Featuring Molly aka "the Thing of Evil"

No infringement.



A Long Walk art print by Dan Charnley

No infringement.



Constant Reader hard enamel pin

It uses King's signature, so infringement.

[dnemec]

Holy crap, that Jordy Verrill one is so blatant.

[Hunchback Jack]

Very interesting post, Brian. Thanks for taking the pics and commenting.

(I'd consider the Carrie pin as infringing only because the title font is the same as that of the doubleday 1st)

You've addressed a lot of the questions I had in response to Briane Keene's podcast and blog post. The examples he gave of NRB's items inspired by his works did not seem like copyright infringement to me, but is there a requirement to get permission to sell something based (broadly) on someone else's intellectual property? There's plagiarism, of course, but plagiarism doesn't seem to apply to these type of items, either.

HBJ

[Br!an]

Very interesting post, Brian. Thanks for taking the pics and commenting.

(I'd consider the Carrie pin as infringing only because the title font is the same as that of the doubleday 1st)

You've addressed a lot of the questions I had in response to Briane Keene's podcast and blog post. The examples he gave of NRB's items inspired by his works did not seem like copyright infringement to me, but is there a requirement to get permission to sell something based (broadly) on someone else's intellectual property? There's plagiarism, of course, but plagiarism doesn't seem to apply to these type of items, either.

HBJ

Like I said, it's subjective.

I have the Keene pin. I think that was fair use. There might be an issue with the way it was marketed. Saying a fair use art project is inspired by whomever is okay. Saying your item is based on whomever might not be. Based on is a more causal link than inspired by. I didn't see the print. I'd canceled by then.

Brian Keene feels that his property rights were infringed. Vincent, no doubt, feels like he had the right to produce the items. Brian now has the right to enforce his copyright. He can inform Vincent that the items are not authorized. Which he did. He can serve a cease and desist letter. Which wasn't necessary. He can escalate to a lawsuit if he feels it necessary. Which isn't practical in this case.

The test is if an intellectual property rights owner has suffered harm. I think that Brian has a case for suffering harm by any association with Vincent at this point.

Regardless, the way to go about this is to stay on the good side of the authors, artists and publishers. Get the permission or stay well within fair use.

[Br!an]

Here are some other items from NRB boxes.

I think the hats are fair use. The Crimson King sticker is copyrighted. The other sticker is okay. The Shining tape is okay. I don't know who owns that image of Barlow, but copying whole sections of text isn't cool.

[Heather19]

Thanks for posting the pics! Those are some cool items. I'm surprised that prior to making the boxes he didn't sort out or inquire about what actions he needed to take to make sure everything was legal.

[Br!an]

Thanks for posting the pics! Those are some cool items. I'm surprised that prior to making the boxes he didn't sort out or inquire about what actions he needed to take to make sure everything was legal.

I think he knew and simply didn't care. "I didn't know I was stealing by copying others work" isn't really an excuse.

Most authors and artists don't have time to run around the internet looking for violations of their copyrights. The amount of time and money it takes to pursue a violator is prohibitive in most cases. Simply making the person stop doing what they are doing is probably the best to be hoped for.

[jeffingoff]

Thanks for posting the pics! Those are some cool items. I'm surprised that prior to making the boxes he didn't sort out or inquire about what actions he needed to take to make sure everything was legal.

I think he knew and simply didn't care. "I didn't know I was stealing by copying others work" isn't really an excuse.

Most authors and artists don't have time to run around the internet looking for violations of their copyrights. The amount of time and money it takes to pursue a violator is prohibitive in most cases. Simply making the person stop doing what they are doing is probably the best to be hoped for.

Seems to be a case of: Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

[anrfreelance]

There are tons of artists making money off of things inspired by others' intellectual property, though. On sites like Etsy, at conventions, etc. It's a weird, slippery slope. My understanding was that Vincent was getting individual artisans to make these pieces; the enamel pins, the art prints, etc. He'd commissioned them from various artists without ever contacting the original IP holders or creators to get permission.

[Beverly Marsh]

I wonder how this whole debacle will affect value? The Gwendy's coin/alt jacket were selling for over $100 for awhile there. Haven't seen any recent sales.
P.S. full disclosure: I really like these two items and wholeheartedly wish they had NOTHING to do with the NRB.

[dnemec]

There are tons of artists making money off of things inspired by others' intellectual property, though. On sites like Etsy, at conventions, etc. It's a weird, slippery slope. My understanding was that Vincent was getting individual artisans to make these pieces; the enamel pins, the art prints, etc. He'd commissioned them from various artists without ever contacting the original IP holders or creators to get permission.

Just because it's being sold on Etsy doesn't make it legal. I was selling some stuff on Etsy and was contacted by one publisher saying it was copyright infringement. I didn't agree, but had no desire to fight with them about it. If they wanted to stop me from making $20 on something that I felt fell under the Fair Use, fine. Some of Vincent's stuff is seriously obvious though.

[Brian861]

I wonder how this whole debacle will affect value? The Gwendy's coin/alt jacket were selling for over $100 for awhile there. Haven't seen any recent sales.
P.S. full disclosure: I really like these two items and wholeheartedly wish they had NOTHING to do with the NRB.

I like them as well, Lori and plan to keep them in my collect. I was wondering the same thing in regards to value when I was organizing my bookcases the other day.

I purchased my set from Chris so I'm happy that I was able to help out a fellow collector and he me.

I was so close to jumping on board when 'Salem's Lot was announced. So very glad that I didn't.

[herbertwest]

There are tons of artists making money off of things inspired by others' intellectual property, though. On sites like Etsy, at conventions, etc. It's a weird, slippery slope. My understanding was that Vincent was getting individual artisans to make these pieces; the enamel pins, the art prints, etc. He'd commissioned them from various artists without ever contacting the original IP holders or creators to get permission.

Yes, but wouldnt there be a difference between individuals making 1-2 items inspired by something, and making hundreds of thousands of the same thing?

[jsmcmullen92]

There are tons of artists making money off of things inspired by others' intellectual property, though. On sites like Etsy, at conventions, etc. It's a weird, slippery slope. My understanding was that Vincent was getting individual artisans to make these pieces; the enamel pins, the art prints, etc. He'd commissioned them from various artists without ever contacting the original IP holders or creators to get permission.

Yes, but wouldnt there be a difference between individuals making 1-2 items inspired by something, and making hundreds of thousands of the same thing?

If they make it for themselves or to give away sure. If they make with the intent to sell the no matter how many it is infringement.

[Br!an]

There are tons of artists making money off of things inspired by others' intellectual property, though. On sites like Etsy, at conventions, etc. It's a weird, slippery slope. My understanding was that Vincent was getting individual artisans to make these pieces; the enamel pins, the art prints, etc. He'd commissioned them from various artists without ever contacting the original IP holders or creators to get permission.

Yes, but wouldnt there be a difference between individuals making 1-2 items inspired by something, and making hundreds of thousands of the same thing?

If they make it for themselves or to give away sure. If they make with the intent to sell the no matter how many it is infringement.

You can make art pieces. For instance, you can draw the dark tower and field of roses, or you can hire/contract an artist to do so, and then sell prints of it without an issue. That's an original creation.

When you start to use branding from a copyright holder is when you muddy the waters. You can't brand your art pieces with other peoples brands without permission.

You can make and sell as many items that don't infringe another's rights as you like.

You can't make and sell any items that do infringe another's rights.

I'd like to point out that there are other rights than copyright at play here. Trademark rights, Right to Reputation, Publicity rights, Right to Privacy, etc., are involved as well.

[anrfreelance]

Oh I agree completely, for the record. I was just stating that he didn't exactly say "We commissioned ___ to draw something inspired by this book". He was saying "You'll receive Joe Hill shirts, Brian Keene art prints, a pin based on a book by Nick Cutter", etc. None of those proceeds went to the people who actually created the original work or the copyrights. All of the money went between the artists he commissioned and his own pocket. I feel bad knowing that I own, for example, an American Gods Mad Sweeney prop coin that Neil Gaiman saw no money from and didn't give his blessing on. If it was officially licensed, he would've gotten a kickback or had an arrangement. Vincent didn't have authorization or clearance from the creators to commission these items, much less mass-produce them. I have a "Mongrels" bandana by Stephen Jones hanging on my wall because I love that book but I know it's an indie, lesser-known book and it makes me feel kind of sick to own it now. :/

[herbertwest]

Did everybody got their money back?
No more pissed off emails to his former clients?