Suntup Editions

[Splync]

I read most of that thread and there are some actual good discussion points sprinkled throughout. The tone of the OP definitely doesn't help though.

Once you get past that OP and the attitudes of some of the contributors, there are actual some level-headed folks discussing the rights system and the community, and they weren't solely negative discussions.

There's actually a lot of praise for Paul in that thread, which is definitely NOT seen in the first post.

Oh there's definitely whining too, but there are some good discussions.

As for Willie's comment, I think it was a bit strong for the current temperature of that thread. The pissy nature of the OP had definitely sizzled out at that point, so I'm not surprised his comment got flagged. The discussion was down to a calm 3 when Willie kicked in the door with a solid 10.

[jeffingoff]

I read most of that thread and there are some actual good discussion points sprinkled throughout. The tone of the OP definitely doesn't help though.

Once you get past that OP and the attitudes of some of the contributors, there are actual some level-headed folks discussing the rights system and the community, and they weren't solely negative discussions.

There's actually a lot of praise for Paul in that thread, which is definitely NOT seen in the first post.

Oh there's definitely whining too, but there are some good discussions.

As for Willie's comment, I think it was a bit strong for the current temperature of that thread. The pissy nature of the OP had definitely sizzled out at that point, so I'm not surprised his comment got flagged. The discussion was down to a calm 3 when Willie kicked in the door with a solid 10.

You’re obviously more generous than I am. Since the entire foundation of their discussion was baseless I toss it all out. Yes there were some valid points. Valid criticisms as well. There’s always a way to make things better. But the overall tone was entitled and whiny. Kids mad because they can’t sit at the cool kids table despite the fact that there are only so many chairs and it’s the unforgiving math that’s preventing them from inclusion. Not the perceived cool kids.

I think Paul’s done plenty to expand that table. With apology and sincerity.

They’re mad they’re outside and to make themselves feel better they declare there’s nothing worthwhile inside and no one inside but fools.

Also they don’t want to buy every book to maintain rights. But they also don’t want to pay secondary market prices. Both are governed by demand. So they claim Paul is a Svengali cult leader creating magical demand.

Fact is there is no bogeyman and the tantrum was just annoying. I don’t understand how reciprocating loyalty can be labeled unfair.

Anyway now I’m having a tantrum. So this beast feeds itself.

I love open discussion with positive and negative opinions on these books. I think it only hurts Suntup to only get praise. But there has to be substance in the discussion and not just declaring Paul a Machiavelli and his customers sycophants.


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[Ari_Racing]

I won't talk about the business model because it's none of my business and there's no way to please everyone. But I found some of the opinions on the market and fanbase interesting and worth reading, no matter if I agree with them or not.

[willie3]

My favorite quote of the day...
“The discussion was down to a calm 3 when Willie kicked in the door with a solid 10.”

Jeff you are correct, “...the Beast feeds itself” and frankly the whining pissed me off.
Getting older, I have no patience or tolerance for that crap, especially from someone who feels entitled to talk down to me and/or people I have respect for.

[Joe315]

As someone who can't always be available at release I really appreciate Paul's rights system. I have missed out on plenty of books because I was busy doing other things when the announcement email came through or I wasn't monitoring a site 24 hours a day to make sure I didn't miss the go live time. I've also missed out, although this is rare, on getting a matching copy of the next book in a series because I didn't get an email or the publisher didn't have a rights system. It is what it is and it doesn't bother me how the publisher(s) handled the release. It's one model of many. Other industries are suffering from release issues. I've been trying to get a new graphics card for months but get beat out from any potential buy by bots. I hate it and wish retailers would do something about it, but I will get it eventually.

Would I normally be interested in buying every single book Paul releases? Probably not but the collector in me really likes the idea of having a complete publishers back list (at least of the numbered; minus Misery (dammit)). And I now own beautiful copies of some great novels like Red Dragon and The Road.

And I do get the FOMO thing. I've experienced like everyone else. But a limited edition should be limited. 250 or 350 or 500. It's all fine.

[Br!an]

I have been a member of that site for years. I hardly ever go there. I'm now reminded why that is.

The thing many people miss is that Paul is using artists, artisans and fine craftsmen to craft his books. An artist or artisan or craftsman can't produce an unlimited amount of product. Limitations are absolutely necessary.

There are mass market books available for readers.

Cry me river.

[RC65]

I guess I have no real idea what Library Thing is — I always thought it was just where folks archived listings of their collection, not discuss books — but I found the portion of the thread I read vaguely interesting and perhaps more balanced than I think Jeff thought. But it did seem like there was some unwarranted criticism born of buyer frustration over Suntup’s business model, a model that may be a bit different than the typical small-press publisher but it’s certainly no less fair simply because it favors previous customers and rewards loyalty.

[jeffingoff]

I guess I have no real idea what Library Thing is — I always thought it was just where folks archived listings of their collection, not discuss books — but I found the portion of the thread I read vaguely interesting and perhaps more balanced than I think Jeff thought. But it did seem like there was some unwarranted criticism born of buyer frustration over Suntup’s business model, a model that may be a bit different than the typical small-press publisher but it’s certainly no less fair simply because it favors previous customers and rewards loyalty.

If the comments there were like yours then I could see it being a constructive conversation. But few people are as thoughtful and level-headed as you, Ron.

My final thought on this: The rights system would have no teeth if there was no demand. It would merely be a courtesy. Current customers get a link ahead of everyone else. Simple as that. But the demand is there. And no amount of hype can create such sustainable, persistent, growing demand. Hype evaporates under scrutiny. In fact, it’s worse when expectations are over-inflated and the finished product is held to impossible standards. But Suntup books continue to meet and exceed expectations. 1984 is a prime example.


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[JGeis]

I think it’s pretty obvious that the largely negative commentary present in that thread is due (as others have already said) to some folks being irritated that they can’t just decide to purchase an individual Suntup numbered or lettered edition on a whim without paying a huge secondary market price. Many people find comfort in disparaging things they don’t have rather than just admitting that they wish they did have them.

I fully admit, as someone who is not a member of the numbered train, there have been times where seeing certain practices such as folks immediately listing their numbered editions for sale at a price increase, months before the book will be in hand, so that they can recoup their funds and maintain their rights, have been annoying to me. But those thoughts are ultimately hypocritical and fleeting. I can’t, with any degree of surety, say that were I in that position, that I wouldn’t do the same.

Regardless, the publisher certainly can’t be held accountable for the actions of the public. None of this would matter if the demand for these books wasn’t so high that people are willing to pay that secondary market premium in order to acquire them.

If anything, that fact alone should be considered all the evidence necessary to establish that Suntup is doing something, many things, very, very well, as a statement of truth rather than conjecture.

[MikeDuke]

I think it’s pretty obvious that the largely negative commentary present in that thread is due (as others have already said) to some folks being irritated that they can’t just decide to purchase an individual Suntup numbered or lettered edition on a whim without paying a huge secondary market price. Many people find comfort in disparaging things they don’t have rather than just admitting that they wish they did have them.

I fully admit, as someone who is not a member of the numbered train, there have been times where seeing certain practices such as folks immediately listing their numbered editions for sale at a price increase, months before the book will be in hand, so that they can recoup their funds and maintain their rights, have been annoying to me. But those thoughts are ultimately hypocritical and fleeting. I can’t, with any degree of surety, say that were I in that position, that I wouldn’t do the same.

Regardless, the publisher certainly can’t be held accountable for the actions of the public. None of this would matter if the demand for these books wasn’t so high that people are willing to pay that secondary market premium in order to acquire them.

If anything, that fact alone should be considered all the evidence necessary to establish that Suntup is doing something, many things, very, very well, as a statement of truth rather than conjecture.

Can I get an Amen.

[DoctorZaius]

I won't talk about the business model because it's none of my business and there's no way to please everyone. But I found some of the options on the market and fanbase interesting and worth reading, no matter if I agree with them or not.

I quite agree. Love to read the banter, but in the end it's up to the business owner to run his/her/their business the way they want. As a consumer I can then make up my own mind if I want to purchase.

[Br!an]

Seems I'm the proud owner of a "very low end of the fine/private press tradition" set of Suntup books.

[St. Troy]

That was exhausting and unsatisfying (now I know how my wife feels). Every complaint, in other words: “I should have the right to buy whatever I want. This is only rights system I believe in.”

It’s all sour grapes. They can’t get them. They can’t get them for the price they want. They can’t tolerate a world where both those things are true. So it must be Suntup’s fault. Or human folly. Or hype. Or scam. Or gimmick. Or market manipulation. Or addiction. Or fad.

I’ve never seen a more privileged assortment of twats wrapping their pouting in such intellectual rendering worthy of a letterpress that requires nothing so barbaric and crude as electricity.

The site prevents me from giving reputation to anyone who might deserve it, so I’ll do this the old fashioned way: well said, sir.

[St. Troy]

The rights system would have no teeth if there was no demand...But the demand is there. And no amount of hype can create such sustainable, persistent, growing demand. Hype evaporates under scrutiny.

This. Repeated, proven substance which generates the sizzle.

[Hunchback Jack]

As someone who can't always be available at release I really appreciate Paul's rights system. I have missed out on plenty of books because I was busy doing other things when the announcement email came through or I wasn't monitoring a site 24 hours a day to make sure I didn't miss the go live time. I've also missed out, although this is rare, on getting a matching copy of the next book in a series because I didn't get an email or the publisher didn't have a rights system. It is what it is and it doesn't bother me how the publisher(s) handled the release. It's one model of many. Other industries are suffering from release issues. I've been trying to get a new graphics card for months but get beat out from any potential buy by bots. I hate it and wish retailers would do something about it, but I will get it eventually.

Would I normally be interested in buying every single book Paul releases? Probably not but the collector in me really likes the idea of having a complete publishers back list (at least of the numbered; minus Misery (dammit)). And I now own beautiful copies of some great novels like Red Dragon and The Road.

And I do get the FOMO thing. I've experienced like everyone else. But a limited edition should be limited. 250 or 350 or 500. It's all fine.

This post sums up my position exactly. I have nothing to add.

[MikeDuke]

"Would I normally be interested in buying every single book Paul releases? Probably not but the collector in me really likes the idea of having a complete publishers back list (at least of the numbered; minus Misery (dammit)"
I am with you there Joe, which is why I will continue to collect Suntup books. Besides, Paul has some picked some amazing books and I can't wait to see what the future holds.

[Dolan]

I think it’s pretty obvious that the largely negative commentary present in that thread is due (as others have already said) to some folks being irritated that they can’t just decide to purchase an individual Suntup numbered or lettered edition on a whim without paying a huge secondary market price. Many people find comfort in disparaging things they don’t have rather than just admitting that they wish they did have them.

I fully admit, as someone who is not a member of the numbered train, there have been times where seeing certain practices such as folks immediately listing their numbered editions for sale at a price increase, months before the book will be in hand, so that they can recoup their funds and maintain their rights, have been annoying to me. But those thoughts are ultimately hypocritical and fleeting. I can’t, with any degree of surety, say that were I in that position, that I wouldn’t do the same.

Regardless, the publisher certainly can’t be held accountable for the actions of the public. None of this would matter if the demand for these books wasn’t so high that people are willing to pay that secondary market premium in order to acquire them.

If anything, that fact alone should be considered all the evidence necessary to establish that Suntup is doing something, many things, very, very well, as a statement of truth rather than conjecture.

Damn this was good.

[jeffingoff]

I think it’s pretty obvious that the largely negative commentary present in that thread is due (as others have already said) to some folks being irritated that they can’t just decide to purchase an individual Suntup numbered or lettered edition on a whim without paying a huge secondary market price. Many people find comfort in disparaging things they don’t have rather than just admitting that they wish they did have them.

I fully admit, as someone who is not a member of the numbered train, there have been times where seeing certain practices such as folks immediately listing their numbered editions for sale at a price increase, months before the book will be in hand, so that they can recoup their funds and maintain their rights, have been annoying to me. But those thoughts are ultimately hypocritical and fleeting. I can’t, with any degree of surety, say that were I in that position, that I wouldn’t do the same.

Regardless, the publisher certainly can’t be held accountable for the actions of the public. None of this would matter if the demand for these books wasn’t so high that people are willing to pay that secondary market premium in order to acquire them.

If anything, that fact alone should be considered all the evidence necessary to establish that Suntup is doing something, many things, very, very well, as a statement of truth rather than conjecture.

Damn this was good.

I’ve been checking the thread for updates and it’s taken a constructive turn. We’re finally getting real opinions instead of high pitched whining. I like seeing the discussion even if I don’t agree with a lot of it.

One thing I don’t understand: if Suntup is at the “low end of fine press” why do they care to own any of the books? It shouldn’t matter to them if the rights system keeps them on the sidelines. Let the fools part with their money.


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[Hunchback Jack]

Some of it is definitely sour grapes, but a lot of it is just the cynicism you often see on the internet towards something new and successful. Especially when the cynic was not a part of it from the start.

And to be fair, from the outside, it would be easy to think that numbered editions priced like other publishers’ lettered editions, and Roman numeral editions priced at what you could buy a small car for, could be a money-grabbing scheme fueled by hype.

You have to see the books to understand.

My own reaction to the numbered Misery was pretty intense. I already owned some very nice lettered editions from other publishers, so I was no stranger to this level of production. But Misery exceeded all my expectations. A lesser publisher might have released a mediocre 185-copy signed edition at that price point, and it still would have sold out. But Suntup’s Misery was obviously the work not just of a King fan, but of a lover of fine books.

I said then that I’d be a Suntup customer for life, and the publications since have only reinforced that position.

HBJ

[ur2ndbiggestfan]

Damn!
I knew I shouldn't have donated my numbered MISERY to Goodwill!
Grumble, grumble, grumble...

[MikeDuke]

Even though I made some mistakes, I intend staying on the train as long as possible. I really love the Suntup books and want to continue to get them. The quality is to notch.

[St. Troy]

...if Suntup is at the “low end of fine press” why do they care to own any of the books?

This is how sneering works.

[St. Troy]

...from the outside, it would be hard to understand how numbered editions priced like other publishers’ lettered editions, and Roman numeral editions priced at what you could buy a small car for, could be anything but a money-grabbing scheme fueled by hype.

That's the thing about that thread - these people already understand how the small/fine press industry works. Random relatives around the holiday dinner table taking the "this is ridiculous" attitude? Logical. A bunch of fine press "connoisseurs" taking the same attitude? Silly - taking offense in the way they did required an ignorance they lack.

[Joe315]

...if Suntup is at the “low end of fine press” why do they care to own any of the books?

This is how sneering works.

And if Suntup is the low end what do they consider high end?

[Dolan]

When I don't like something, I just don't buy it. I don't feel the desire to trash them on websites, or talk badly about business practices I disagree with. I simply and openly don't buy.

These are people locked out of buying at publishers price and they're taking their frustration out on the publisher. I've said dozens of times on the FB page, these are people who are not used to collecting books. They just want what they want, when they want it. They want the price to be really low, they want the value to skyrocket and NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE can make a profit from re-selling unless it's them because they have a dental bill. Or a car payment. Anyone else is a scalper!

It actually makes me nauseous to read sometimes. If I really said how I felt, Kris would have banned me MONTHS ago!