LOST--watch out for **SPOILERS**

[flaggwalkstheline]

I think he had him do it because there was a small chance that he would be healed in a good way rather than "infected" clearly that chance failed

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, I mean I thought that's obviously what Jacob was hoping for (unless there's some twisted ulterior motive to it, or a reason why a bad Sayid would be beneficial in the end) but, my point is more that, it seemed accepted that even if the process works, the person loses their humanity...so why would you bother?

I wonder if bad Sayid will be used as some kind of weapon against the MiB, or if the MiB tries to infect people in this way in a kind of Voldemort/horcrux type way so he can't be killed easily?

I also wonder the significance of Sayid reinforcing to the audience that he has been a "bad man" throughout his life, and that he worried where he would end up in death because of it, it seemed to be foreshadowing something to me.

Other things I noticed from rewatching and listening to the podcast - Damon and Carlton stressed that we shouldn't call the flash sideways an "alternate" universe but rather another reality. I think most of us DT fans have already understood that, in terms of what happened to Jake and Roland - ie that an alternate universe, or another when, exist alongside each other - whereas when a split occurs such as this one, they can't exist side by side and must be rectified or united at some point.

Darlton also said to consider the implications of what is happening in the flash sideways, things like Des being on the plane, but that when Jack says he recognises him maybe it can't be because they met training at the stadium, because Des was only in training for the boat race which ended up with his being on the island.

It appears Locke lied to Boone about going on the walkabout, but is Sun lying about not speaking English, or can she really not in this when? Plus, the security lady calls her Miss Paik - are she and Jin not married?

Sawyer warns Hurley about not telling people he won the lottery, is Sawyer a con man in this when - or did the real Sawyer never enter his life and is he simply James Ford?

Something else too! Do you think Christian Sheppard is really dead and his corpse is on the island somewhere with the MiB just appearing as him, as he's done with Locke - or, do you think Christian has been regenerated in the spring like Ben and Sayid?

[Roehcai]

Here's my theory on Jacob's motives with Sayid:

I'm thinking that maybe, someone saved from death (or perhaps 'reborn') in the waters not only changes them in personality, etc, but I think it also 'unbinds' them from whatever law prohibited Jacob and MiB from hurting eachother. I think the 'loophole' wasn't just that MiB coudln't kill Jacob, but it *had* to be Ben (ie, someone healed from the waters). It might be more complex, something like 'someone who had died.' ?

Anyhow, Jacob might have siezed the moment to 'transform' Sayid (and save his life), so there would be someone who could kill MiB too (Ben is a wildcard at this point.)

An extension of this is the 'they' that Jacob warned MiB about. If Jacob and MiB are egyptian gods (or something like that), and can only be killed by 'those who died', then the 'ones who are comming', might be similar creatures?


tl;dr version:
Only people who were 'saved' in the waters can hurt the supernatural entities, and Jacob is using Sayid for this.

[Spencer]

Yes, I mean I thought that's obviously what Jacob was hoping for (unless there's some twisted ulterior motive to it, or a reason why a bad Sayid would be beneficial in the end)

Everyone seems to be assuming that Jacob is the good guy. I'm with Frank, who, after being told by Jacob's Bodyguards "We're the good guys", said, "In my experience, the people that go out of their way to tell you they're the good guys, are the bad guys."

[Hannah]

I'm with you on that, Spence. I'm still waiting for the good vs. evil sides to be revealed. You can tell me you're a good guy all you want, but the bottom line is that Jacob hasn't seemed like he's a good guy yet. In fact, they've made both Jacob and MiB very ambiguous up until this point.

[Darkthoughts]

Hmmm, good point. I mean, if the Others are Jacob's people then they haven't proven themselves to be anything other than ready to hit people over the head with sticks and guns and kidnap them...which is hardly the epitome of good.

I thought it was interesting that the MiB had inhabited Locke's body when Locke has essentially been a good man, albeit one with poor judgement (look at his flashbacks, donating a kidney, helping out Eddie etc) and Sayid, an ex-torturor is essentially a bad man and that's who Jacob has chosen.

Yes, interesting!

[Ricky]

Here's an interesting thought: if the Temple water has the ability to revive those who are dead, why not just bring everyone there (i.e. Juliet and other recently deceased)? Does it only work if initiated by Jacob/Richard/other Others with authority?

[Hannah]

Good point, Lisa! I didn't even think about the whole MiB - Locke connection with the goodness of Locke vs. the badness of Sayid. I'd also like to piggyback on what you said and add that MiB as Locke seemed to show some genuine feeling for Locke when he was describing Locke's last thoughts to Ben.

Huh. That sentence would be very confusing to someone who didn't watch LOST at all.

Here's an interesting thought: if the Temple water has the ability to revive those who are dead, why not just bring everyone there (i.e. Juliet and other recently deceased)? Does it only work if initiated by Jacob/Richard/other Others with authority?

I don't get the reviving those who are dead thing. When did it ever work on the dead? It seemed to me that it was supposed to work on the living.

[Ricky]

I don't get the reviving those who are dead thing. When did it ever work on the dead? It seemed to me that it was supposed to work on the living.

Wasn't Sayid dead by the time they put him in the muck-water? Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

[Hannah]

I don't get the reviving those who are dead thing. When did it ever work on the dead? It seemed to me that it was supposed to work on the living.

Wasn't Sayid dead by the time they put him in the muck-water? Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

Nope, they totally drowned him in the water while Jack and Hurley and all them watched. Then they were like, "your friend is dead."

[Ricky]

Oh, okay. I remember now. For some reason I thought he was dead when they put him in the water.

[Hannah]

I keep coming back to how they drowned him right in front of all his buddies and they all stood by and watched.

[Ricky]

Ordinarily, I believe that one of them would've stepped in had it been real-life, but for the show, they all had to stand by and watch for the sake of the "ritual" completion.

[Roehcai]

Also, didn't the others (ones not doing the ritual) have them all at gunpoint?

I think the water doesn't work on the dead, so much as it works on those who *dying*, in the truest sense - beyond medical help. Ben and Sayid were both in this condition.

Also, wanted to point out - MiB never 'inhabited' Locke's body. He took on Locke's form, but Locke's body was always inert, never inhabited or possesed. (MiB seems to have the ability to take on the forms of those who have died.)

I dunno if Jacob is 'pure good', but I think he might be the 'lesser evil'. I have to wonder, though, why he did keep bringing people to the island. He knew he ran the risk of dying and/or freeing the 'Nemesis'.

(Everyone uses the terms 'MiB', but I believe the actual 'Man in Black', ie that guy on the beach with Jacob in the distant past, was just another dead guy whose form Jacob's Nemesis was using. I think the smoke-monster form is closer to his true body...)

[theyspunaweb]

Roehcai - that's how I felt about the MIB body. I am wondering if Smokey might be closer to his real body, and maybe we haven't even seen Jacob's real form yet. It gives us a lot to think about.

[Hannah]

See, I don't think Smokey is the true form at all. I guess the major clue there came from when Ben asked him "What are you?" and fake-Locke said, "Not what - who." (or something along those lines.) Obviously he considers himself some sort of person and not a thing, which would hint that the smoke is not his true form, but rather a form he takes to fuck shit up when he needs to. of course, that's just my thoughts on the whole deal, and (as usual) I'm probably completely wrong.

[Ricky]

See, I don't think Smokey is the true form at all.

Didn't you know that his true form is Hurley and Libby's picnic basket from the earlier seasons?

I thought that was common knowledge.

[jreidy]

i'm not sure if this is the right place and forgive me if it's mentioned in here (posts go back to season 3 of Lost), but i'm very interested in the DT/Lost connections.

i'm almost finished with my second time through the series. i'm a big Lost fan and what drew me to the Dark Tower was that the Lost guys said they were big fans. then i started noticing the similarities.

is there a separate thread for these connections? they seemed to have borrowed a lot of stuff and i curious what people think.

thanks,
JR

[Hannah]

There is not a separate thread for the connections, but I don't think that's a bad idea.

[jreidy]

once i navigate my way around, i might just do that.

but off the top of my head, in last season's finale, the conversation between Jacob and Lost's Man in Black, Jacob says something very similar to the Dark Tower's MIB (aka Walter)....something about only ending once and making progress. Walter says something just like it to Roland which i think hints at how Lost may end.

we've already seen the alternate timeline in Lost and if you remember from the end of the DT:

Spoiler:

Susannah ends up in an alternate new york where her and Eddie don't know each other, but know they are supposed to know each other etc.

...if that makes sense. we've seen that in this new Lost season. just one of the many similarities i've noticed. how about Dogen from Lost and the Dogan from the latter books?

[Ricky]

There's alot of DT/LOST connections listed on Lostpedia, but it would definitely be cool to have an area on here to post them.

[Hannah]

jreidy, you should start the thread! By the way, welcome to the site.

[Spencer]

Oh, okay. I remember now. For some reason I thought he was dead when they put him in the water.

Still, if I was Sawyer, I'd have said, "Gimme 10 minutes, Fu-Man-Chu, I'll be back with a hot blonde to throw in that magic Dagobah swamp you got there."

[Spencer]

See, I don't think Smokey is the true form at all.

Didn't you know that his true form is Hurley and Libby's picnic basket from the earlier seasons?

I thought that was common knowledge.

and we may be seeing that picnic basket, or one of its cousins, again this season.

[Aaron]

Oh, okay. I remember now. For some reason I thought he was dead when they put him in the water.

Still, if I was Sawyer, I'd have said, "Gimme 10 minutes, Fu-Man-Chu, I'll be back with a hot blonde to throw in that magic Dagobah swamp you got there."

That read just like a line from Sawyer.