Bracket #11: The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower (2004)

[Jean]

yes, it's the old monkey's paw problem. One must word the wishes very carefully. For example, feverish could gain the ability to appreciate the ending, but lose some of his feverish-ness, which would make the world a sadder place.

[Girlystevedave]

True.

[Andrew Campbell]

I gave it a 4. Loved the ending. In fact, as "ka" would dictate, it was the only logical ending to have. However, I didn't expect the Crimson King to be a gibbering idiot, so I had to dock it a point. I expected someone a calculated and ruthless as Flagg. G'head. Shoot me. Tell me I've "forgotten the face of my Father."

Bears don't shoot, they maul.

Seriously, though, I never thought the reasoning "I expected this and got that" is very convincing. I'd much rather people (and animals) argued with what they got, not what they expected. I know, however, that many have found the Crimson King thing disappointing, expectations or no expectations. Couldn't never really understand why. I would say having a dead insane king in the centre of the universe was just about the worst thing that could happen to us.

Well, it strikes me that such is the point of this exercise: we all rate experiences (be they books, movies, vacations, sky-divimg, food, what-have-you) based upon our expectations. Higher marks go to those experiences that exceed the expectations, whilst lower marks go to those which fall flat. For DT7, the build up to the Crimson King, which started with INSOMNIA, exceeded the actual manifestation of what was supposed to be the ultimate villain. And in this respect, I refer back to the movie BROADCAST NEWS where Aaron, in describing the Devil, asks (somewhat rhetorically): How will the Devil show himself? With a tail, and horns, and fangs? Surely not. The Devil will appear as a nice guy -- a friend, who only will ask you to compromise your values just a little bit. And then a little more. And then more still.

That, I guess, is what I was expecting with the Crimson King: a seducer, who was well-versed and familiar in the inherently fragile nature of humanity, and who would (quietly, but gleefully) exploit it.

Now, I agree that having a dead, insane king at the center of the universe is a frightening proposition. That proposition, however, doesn't convey the inherent evil that I was looking for: i.e., the ultimate antithesis to (borrowing King's terminology) "the White."

[Jean]

but what if what we have exceeds our expectations, so to speak, sideways?

I mean, there is a quantitative and qualitative aspects to expectation. We expect something to be awesome, and it isn't; or we expect it to be average, and it's awesome - this is the quantitative aspect, and very much the experience I had with the whole of, say, Dr.Sleep and Cell respectively.

The qualitative aspect in its mild form is, we expected it to be round, and it is square. This can be more or less reduced to previous case, because we can argue that round is more appropriate and give some valid arguments in favor of this opinion.

In its pure form it is: we expected it to be round, and it is pink.

(sorry I have to hurry to work now, I didn't address all of your post and haven't developed what I wanted to say, but you see the poiint! please do go on, God knows bears missed such discussions!!!)

[Jon]

But then again, I must say, of this book, and of of some others, they were "born for dying."

Some die better than others.

[Andrew Campbell]

but what if what we have exceeds our expectations, so to speak, sideways?

I mean, there is a quantitative and qualitative aspects to expectation. We expect something to be awesome, and it isn't; or we expect it to be average, and it's awesome - this is the quantitative aspect, and very much the experience I had with the whole of, say, Dr.Sleep and Cell respectively.

The qualitative aspect in its mild form is, we expected it to be round, and it is square. This can be more or less reduced to previous case, because we can argue that round is more appropriate and give some valid arguments in favor of this opinion.

In its pure form it is: we expected it to be round, and it is pink.

(sorry I have to hurry to work now, I didn't address all of your post and haven't developed what I wanted to say, but you see the poiint! please do go on, God knows bears missed such discussions!!!)

My point is two-fold. First, while bat-shit crazy (as was presented by the Crimson King in DT7) is scary, it is not necessarily evil. Sure, he's lobbing hand-grenades like Tom Seaver, but he's irrational, unthinking and -- thus -- somewhat random. Which brings me to the second part: that is not how SK initially set up the Crimson King. He first appears in INSOMNIA. Specifically, he appears to young Patrick Danville in dreams. Now, someone who can do that is focused, purposeful, and single-minded to a goal. In a word: cognitive. In INSOMNIA, the Crimson King has an agenda. We don't know what it is, or why he inhabits Danville's dreams, but we surmise that there is a reason and goal for doing so. And it is because of that implicit understanding, that Patrick Danville can not die, regardless of the price. That is (for me) the whole point of INSOMNIA: to present that all matters dealing with The Dark Tower are conscious and purposeful, and that there are two immense forces (the White and the Dark) that are locked in a struggle and contest for ultmate control. Indeed, when Ralph Roberts strikes his deal with Clotho and Lachesis to substitute his own life for that of Natalie Deepneau, Ralph senses great cosmic wheels -- at levels far higher than his plane of existence -- turning and rebalancing as his proposal is considered and -- ultimately -- accepted.

That is the stage (and the expectation) King sets in INSOMNIA, which he really does nowhere else in any of the DT novels: i.e., that, while "all things serve the Beam," there is a conscious, calculating, and focused purpose in why things happen. If nothing else, Ronald Deschain is purposeful in everything he does, and everything he does is focused on the singular goal of attaining the Tower. The "yin" to his "yang" is the Crimson King, who is . . . what? . . . a gibbering, incoherent primate with a wicked fastfall? That's not how he was established when he first made the scene in INSOMNIA, which is why to me his final climactic appearance was a let down.

[fernandito]

but what if what we have exceeds our expectations, so to speak, sideways?

I mean, there is a quantitative and qualitative aspects to expectation. We expect something to be awesome, and it isn't; or we expect it to be average, and it's awesome - this is the quantitative aspect, and very much the experience I had with the whole of, say, Dr.Sleep and Cell respectively.

The qualitative aspect in its mild form is, we expected it to be round, and it is square. This can be more or less reduced to previous case, because we can argue that round is more appropriate and give some valid arguments in favor of this opinion.

In its pure form it is: we expected it to be round, and it is pink.

(sorry I have to hurry to work now, I didn't address all of your post and haven't developed what I wanted to say, but you see the poiint! please do go on, God knows bears missed such discussions!!!)

My point is two-fold. First, while bat-shit crazy (as was presented by the Crimson King in DT7) is scary, it is not necessarily evil. Sure, he's lobbing hand-grenades like Tom Seaver, but he's irrational, unthinking and -- thus -- somewhat random. Which brings me to the second part: that is not how SK initially set up the Crimson King. He first appears in INSOMNIA. Specifically, he appears to young Patrick Danville in dreams. Now, someone who can do that is focused, purposeful, and single-minded to a goal. In a word: cognitive. In INSOMNIA, the Crimson King has an agenda. We don't know what it is, or why he inhabits Danville's dreams, but we surmise that there is a reason and goal for doing so. And it is because of that implicit understanding, that Patrick Danville can not die, regardless of the price. That is (for me) the whole point of INSOMNIA: to present that all matters dealing with The Dark Tower are conscious and purposeful, and that there are two immense forces (the White and the Dark) that are locked in a struggle and contest for ultmate control. Indeed, when Ralph Roberts strikes his deal with Clotho and Lachesis to substitute his own life for that of Natalie Deepneau, Ralph senses great cosmic wheels -- at levels far higher than his plane of existence -- turning and rebalancing as his proposal is considered and -- ultimately -- accepted.

That is the stage (and the expectation) King sets in INSOMNIA, which he really does nowhere else in any of the DT novels: i.e., that, while "all things serve the Beam," there is a conscious, calculating, and focused purpose in why things happen. If nothing else, Ronald Deschain is purposeful in everything he does, and everything he does is focused on the singular goal of attaining the Tower. The "yin" to his "yang" is the Crimson King, who is . . . what? . . . a gibbering, incoherent primate with a wicked fastfall? That's not how he was established when he first made the scene in INSOMNIA, which is why to me his final climactic appearance was a let down.

Wow. Well stated, I agree with just about everything you said. I haven't thought about the CK aspect of the story in quite some time but now that the memory has been rekindled; yes, he was a massive disappointment as both a character and as the anti thesis to 'The White'.

[Jean]

I will presently move or copy the posts from #28 down to some appropriate thread in Mid-World? (there are some threads re the ending)
It hasn't seen a good discussion since forever.

[fernandito]

Hey Jean, I don't have any mod powers in KR... I think it's you and O?

[Jean]

yes, yes, I've already noticed that we were not discussing best horror film of all times! edited my post accordingly, and, by the way, copied the posts here:

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...poilers*/page9

please everyone, let's have further discussion where it belongs, or it will be lost after this CRA is over

[mae]

The poll has closed. The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower has earned a FAS (final average score) of 4.173076923 or 83.46%. It received a rating of 5/4 with 8 votes.