That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[The Road Virus]

Proceed, I'll leave it to the professionals from now on.

At first I hated the loop ending but it started to grow on me and I can appreciate (commend) if an author can make his magnum opus technically never end.

[getabettereraser]

no Redundancy check needed then?

[pathoftheturtle]

I mean, if people get no do-overs in the real world, then the literal story of Roland isn't really very important. I can imagine him laboring to save us and our counterparts in infinite alternate worlds, but I'm bound to lose interest in that dream pretty quickly if there's no reflection to our genuine situations.

[Nozz-A-La]

I just started rereading the series a while ago, and I'm on Wolves of the Calla right now. There are a couple of paragraphs in the book that got me thinking. If the Tower, or Gan, is punishing Roland by having him constantly repeat his journey to the Tower to try to find redemption, isn't this also happening to his entire Ka-Tet? There was a part in Wolves when Eddie is getting on a horse for the first time, and when he is shown how to adjust the stirrups he gets a feeling of Deja Vu and thinks about reincarnation and that he's done this 'a thousand times before.'

I think this stuff is only thought about by Eddie, but I could be wrong. Just thought this was interesting.

[Darkthoughts]

There have been quite a few discussions on exactly this point, so good call! I'm going to move and merge this thread to the Dark Tower subforum in The Baronies. It'll be merged with the official Loop thread

[Coolbreeze78]

I just finished reading the series over a five year period. Even though I own every King novel written, these are the first I have actually read all the way through. (Not because he isn't good, it's just that I have ADHD, which is why it took five years to finish)

So, I really enjoyed the ending but there are a few parts I am confused on. I have started reading The Road to the Dark Tower to tie up some of the loose ends but maybe you all have a better understanding.

To me, the ending felt like he was trapped in hell as punishment for losing his soul. He was condemned to relive every mistake he made and to carry his guilt as a burden for all of eternity. This almost seems fitting for being in hell. You get to the end of your life and think you can finally rest, but only get to see it start all over again and for a moment you are faced with that reality of knowing that you are in hell, as scary as it is, and then BOOM, you forget what happened and it starts all over.

One thing I haven't quite understood yet... is this series just one iteration of his life? If so, is the next one different? But more than that does he take with him into the new life what he had in the previous. For example, he has lost two of his fingers to the lobstrosoties, do these grow back like Susannah's legs do? If they don't and he relives similar events he wouldn't be able to lose them again when he gets to the beach. And if he has no memory of his past life, how does he explain where his fingers went?

At the end there was a mention about the Horn of Eld. I don't quite understand it's importance yet and maybe they will touch on it in the book later, but they say "The instrument is an important sigul dating back to Arthur Eld. Roland's failure to pick it up is an indicator that this iteration of his quest is doomed to fail." If that's true, aren't all iterations doomed to fail, as the horn was left on Jericho Hill and Roland starts his life over each time in the desert, years after the battle took place. Logically he would never be able to retrieve it if his course of events shadow this series of novels.

I am sure it would never happen now that the work is a masterpiece and is complete, but now that Roland has the horn in his latest iteration, it would be interesting if King wrote another series of novels following this incarnation to the end to see how the outcome changes. The funny thing is, even though the books I assume would be very similar in nature to the first series I am sure he would sell a ton of them all over again. ^.^ Btw, can't wait for the movie rights to get worked out!

[Merlin1958]

First off, welcome to the site!!!! Visit regularly and post often!!!

OK, lots of questions, but I'll do my best to offer up my and some generally held opinions regarding your thoughts, but in the end only your opinion will ultimately count for you.

Lots of folks believe that the story tells the tale of Rolands "19th loop.iteration" and the fact that he receives the Horn for the 20th signifies that it will be his last. It's not really a hell, IMHO, because he has no knowledge of past loops when he starts again. So he also has all his "body parts". Its generally believed that Roland has several "watershed" decisions to make evry time through the loop. As he :gets them right" so to speak he gets closer to the top of the Tower metaphorically. Hence this time through he is rewarded with the "Horn". I, and a few others, believe that Roland is actually a champion or representative for all mankind and as he/we evolves and gets closer to a "perfect" or more humane person/society the better his chances of actually succeeding in his quest. Basically, he suffers the "loops" for the benefit of mankind throughout the Multi-verse.

Biggest thing, IMHO is that he is not in "Hell" because he does not remember or know of previous loops. Each time through he has to make the same choices, but maybe has better character (?) to make them.

Any of that help?

[pathoftheturtle]

... I have started reading The Road to the Dark Tower to tie up some of the loose ends ...

Good idea definitely. It features some terrific insights on the points you mentioned, and some other fascinating perspectives.
I hope you'll also read and get invovled in some of our various DT7 forum threads.

... I am sure it would never happen now that the work is a masterpiece and is complete, but now that Roland has the horn in his latest iteration, it would be interesting if King wrote another series of novels following this incarnation to the end to see how the outcome changes. ... can't wait for the movie rights to get worked out!

It would be wonderful if the movies did a masterful take on that idea which I'm sure you're right that SK won't ever be doing, and showed a later iteration with a profound, vital ending.
It would be horrible if they did a lousy take on it and presented a ridiculous, corny alternate ending, though.

[beam*seeker]

I saw it less about being in Hell, and more about having to reincarnate as many times as it takes until he gets it right. And getting it right involves not losing the horn, since he needs to sound it before he comes to the tower for the last time. (and he probably needs to not drop that boy!)

[BigSchu22]

It would be wonderful if the movies did a masterful take on that idea which I'm sure you're right that SK won't ever be doing, and showed a later iteration with a profound, vital ending.
It would be horrible if they did a lousy take on it and presented a ridiculous, corny alternate ending, though.

This part of what pathoftheturtle said really reminds me of the Mass Effect 3 ending debacle that is currently happening right now.

I thought I would weigh-in again since my first thoughts after finishing the novels almost 2 years ago. I have now come to believe that the ending is perfect, after all Ka is a wheel isn't it? A lot of people have brought up Kharma and Buddhism and that each time through, one is rewarded with something that will help them end their journey.

Still, it's just nagging at me though, how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop, otherwise it's just random choice that leads him to make the "correct" decisions. Also, while I think this will be his last iteration as evidenced by the Horn of Eld, I just feel as if he's never actually saving the tower (or anything) because he's doomed to repeat the same journey over and over again, if that makes sense.

As a side note, I would really be interested to see more of the old people in Roland's world. I know it is a world next to ours, but several references in the novels make it seems to be a very far futuristic version of our world so, I'd really like to know how the timeline goes in Roland's world/our world.

Specifically, I think it is in novel 6 or 7, when we see one of the mind sucking machines they used on the children from Wolves that says something about being in business since the year ten-thousands... does anyone remember that?

[TowerJunkie19]

I thought I would weigh-in again since my first thoughts after finishing the novels almost 2 years ago. I have now come to believe that the ending is perfect, after all Ka is a wheel isn't it? A lot of people have brought up Kharma and Buddhism and that each time through, one is rewarded with something that will help them end their journey.

Still, it's just nagging at me though, how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop, otherwise it's just random choice that leads him to make the "correct" decisions. Also, while I think this will be his last iteration as evidenced by the Horn of Eld, I just feel as if he's never actually saving the tower (or anything) because he's doomed to repeat the same journey over and over again, if that makes sense.

I couldn't agree more with your view on the ending with Ka, Kharma and Buddhism. When I read the ending for the first time, the first thing I thought about was Ka and I honestly loved the ending and knowing that this time around will be different with Roland having the Horn of Eld. At the same time, I see where you're coming from with not understanding how Roland is learning any lessons. Throughout the book it describes how Roland has such a firm personality and process of decision making I don't see how having him go through the same loop with the Horn will change his thought process in the choices he made. The only way I can see his choices changing in this loop is if his personality characteristics changed when his fellow gunslingers died and he took possession of the Horn.

[fernandito]

The question that presses my mind the most is : Why ?

Why does Roland need to go through the loops ? Why does the Tower need him to go through these loops ? What is the ultimate goal ? What does Gan hope to gain ?

I'm sure that Arthur Eld - in all his wisdom - wasn't devoid of serious defects, did the Tower make Eld go through loops too ?

[blavigne]

The question that presses my mind the most is : Why ?

Why does Roland need to go through the loops ? Why does the Tower need him to go through these loops ? What is the ultimate goal ? What does Gan hope to gain ?

I'm sure that Arthur Eld - in all his wisdom - wasn't devoid of serious defects, did the Tower make Eld go through loops too ?

I am on my fourth re-read. I think the end is nothing more than a door back to the beginning of that part of the journey which is the point of the story. I become more convinced that Roland's journey will never end until another takes his place, not because of Roland or any other being, but because the tower requires it, by which I mean being constantly in peril and saved. Maybe it is designed that way (by Gan?), maybe it is just the way of the universe.

I also wonder why. But I do think maybe Arthur Eld did go through loops. Maybe the next one will be Susannah since she did have a choice to go on. If she had, perhaps Roland would have been given his rest and she would be the one "looping".

What I don't think is that it is because of Roland. I know he let Jake drop. He also renounced the tower for Jake later when he decided to step in front of the van so Jake would live. It didn't happen that way, but that was Ka not Roland's decision. Through this and a lot of other things throughout the story, I think Roland earned his redemption whether he actually needed it or not.

Just a few of my thoughts. The one thing I do know is that I LOVE this story, even it's flaws. I would not change any of it.

[Merlin1958]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHO

[Jean]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHO

bears can't help feeling that this view diminishes Roland somehow...

[fernandito]

jean - any thoughts on the questions I posed above ? I'd love to hear what bears think.

[Jean]

jean - any thoughts on the questions I posed above ? I'd love to hear what bears think.

alas, bears are - you know - far too keen on where and how, but not so hot on why. I just think that this is the structure of the world. To go round, it needs heroes and saints (I already developed somewhere the idea that I view Roland as a plain old Catholic saint, akin to St.George, St Ignatius Loyola or St.Joan of Arc). The whys are interesting*, but from where bears stand, immaterial.

*the ones you've posted are definitely interesting enough for bears to give them another thought... especially the Arthur Eld question. Don't know whether he was perfect, or he (his personal salvation) just didn't really interest God (not enough to hinge the salvation of the universe on it anyway), having fully played his part and died like a person should.

[Merlin1958]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHO

bears can't help feeling that this view diminishes Roland somehow...

Then perhaps I did not state it properly. I don't think it takes anything away from "Roland" the character. He thinks, he breathe's and he longs. Just that he is also a amalgam for the human race which, is also a part of his make-up. He is "any man & everyman". Better? I have to admit it's hard for me to put into words. Maybe 20 years ago I would do better, but for now this and a little imagination will have to do. Thanks for the post, Jean!!! Really!!!!

As a "Teacher" you have a way of "pushing" that every teacher does!!! Even though I'm a soon to be Grand-Dad!!! LOL

[Brainslinger]

how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop,

I think that's it. I think he does take something from his previous loops but it's subconscious. Not so much a memory as a memory of a memory if you like. In effect I think that means he undergoes minute changes in his personality, although he doesn't quite remember how that happens. Who knows, maybe the inclusion of the Horn helps trigger some of those changes in his thought processes this time round... but I think he still has a long way to go. Many more turns on the roundabout.

I particularly find it interesting how the other members of his ka-tet have a sense of deja-vu as well. Taking to horse riding so easily for example. Of course that doesn't mean they're affected by the loop necessarily. It could be an indication of some form or reincarnation or 'twin mind pollination' (for example Cuthbert to Eddie for example). Like how people in one world will pick up impressions from their equivalent in another world, in The Talisman. But it could be an example of the looping affect. Not that I think they are looping themselves but I think they may still be aware on some higher (or is it lower?) level.

11.22.64 spoilers:

Spoiler:

Kinda like how the old lady somehow had the impression that she knew the novel's main protagonist, but she couldn't say how or where.

[Jon]

A good point with the '64 spoiler.

[BigSchu22]

how can Roland ever learn anything if he doesn't remember anything from his previous iterations? How can he learn any lessons? He must have some sort of passing thought, memory, or intuition that leads him to make the correct decisions this time through his loop,

I think that's it. I think he does take something from his previous loops but it's subconscious. Not so much a memory as a memory of a memory if you like. In effect I think that means he undergoes minute changes in his personality, although he doesn't quite remember how that happens. Who knows, maybe the inclusion of the Horn helps trigger some of those changes in his thought processes this time round... but I think he still has a long way to go. Many more turns on the roundabout.

I particularly find it interesting how the other members of his ka-tet have a sense of deja-vu as well. Taking to horse riding so easily for example. Of course that doesn't mean they're affected by the loop necessarily. It could be an indication of some form or reincarnation or 'twin mind pollination' (for example Cuthbert to Eddie for example). Like how people in one world will pick up impressions from their equivalent in another world, in The Talisman. But it could be an example of the looping affect. Not that I think they are looping themselves but I think they may still be aware on some higher (or is it lower?) level.

11.22.64 spoilers:

Spoiler:

Kinda like how the old lady somehow had the impression that she knew the novel's main protagonist, but she couldn't say how or where.

Well, we know that the characters -- or some of them at least -- must be looping with Roland because of what Walter says to Roland in the Golgotha... unless it's just him that recognizes this because of his supernatural nature.

The thought about Arthur Eld looping is interesting to me, I've seen it before in the forums and I'm wondering where people are getting this impression from? I only remember a few references to Eld throughout the novels, and I thought it was just a bastardization of Arthurian legend as most things seem to be in Roland's world (bastardizations of history). Or was Eld an actual leader of some type that brought about the monarchy after whatever apocalypse occurred in Roland's world, sort of a The Postman type figure who used the legend to create the new society?

[Brainslinger]

I thought it was just a bastardization of Arthurian legend as most things seem to be in Roland's world (bastardizations of history). Or was Eld an actual leader of some type that brought about the monarchy after whatever apocalypse occurred in Roland's world, sort of a The Postman type figure who used the legend to create the new society?

He was a real person in Roland's world. Roland is a direct descendant in fact via one of Arthur Eld's gillies. And his guns are made from the melted down blade of Excalibur. The Crimson King is descended from him too. According to the comics,

Spoiler:

his son by a spider demon seductress.

You can learn more about Arthur Eld from the comics (although it's debatable how canon one should consider those. My view is, if it's sanctioned by King and doesn't contradict the novels... well, you decide.) but Roland's ancestry from Eld and the origins of his guns are mentioned in the last novel The Dark Tower, I believe.

You're right, he came into power after the fall of the Great Old Ones when much of the world had become a poisoned wasteland. He brought stability and unity and fought with his gunslinger knights against the harriers plaguing the world at that time.

There is a strong suggestion in the comics that Arthur might have visited other worlds too. One of the comics states

Spoiler:

that he got his revolvers and possibly the sword from such a world

. Whether he is the same Arthur as our world or a parallel universe version*, I'm not sure, but I'd go with the latter. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Eld was a kingdom in the ancient days which suggests he had a history Roland's world. Again debatable how legitimate one should take the comics. I accept some stuff, but not others.

Did Arthur/Is Arthur looping? Quite possibly. It seems he may well have visited the Tower too.

*'Twinner' if you'd like to use The Talisman parlance. I'm not sure of using that term here though as the relationship between twinners in The Dark Tower series isn't quite the same as that in the Talisman books.

[BigSchu22]

Thanks, Brainslinger, that was thorough and cleared some things up for me. I have all the comics on my wishlist right now. I'm waiting for the Waystation to be bound in a hard cover before I get all the others -- it's too much work to keep up with the individual comic issues, which is the same problem I'm having with the Farscape comics. Anyway, that makes a lot more sense now... especially if Eld was somehow able to travel to obtain Excalibur from another world.

I've read Talisman and Blackhouse and I know it is related to the DT series. In fact, we see the same hospital that Roland visits in the Little Sisters... so you're saying that possibly Eld was a twinner of King Arthur?

[Brainslinger]

so you're saying that possibly Eld was a twinner of King Arthur?

It's never actually stated but that's the impression I get. I guess it could be one guy crossing back and forth between worlds. Or what's true in Roland's world is a legend in ours, as in the story crossed universes in an altered form if that makes sense. (I like to think Arthur existed in our world though. )

[pathoftheturtle]

I still maintain that Roland is a representative of humanity and therefore a metaphor for the whole human race. As we "get it right" so does Roland. The significance of the horn is a reward for humanity's progress. IMHO

bears can't help feeling that this view diminishes Roland somehow...

Do the people serve the king, or does the king serve the people?

I agree in theory Roland should be linked to humanity -- he founds a corporation and changes the course of history in one world -- but I'm not so sure he really is, as King wrote the tale. It's a messed up moral that suggests the hero should just worry more about himself... and such a suggestion runs contrary to every other theme in SK's career.

I think that when we ask why this happened to Roland, of course we need to start by finding basis for comparison: Is it true that other people usually go to Heaven or to Hell? If so, what makes him different? Or is this fate simply supposed to stand for one or the other of those, or the usual road thereunto? OR is that whole belief just not true in TDT mythos? Is Roland in fact being treated worse than most are for some reason, or is he for some other reason actually better off than the rest of us?